VocRehab Self-Employment

In a survey of VA regional offices nationwide, Boise VA Regional Office is tied for dead last when it comes to self-employment of all participating facilities.

I just received a FOIA response written by VA Vocational Rehabilitation that surveyed every regional office that administers self-employment benefits for disabled veterans. That survey showed Boise VA tied Wilmington VA at dead last (zero) for approving self-employment benefits for disabled veterans.

The top two facilities were Detroit VA and Manila VA (Philippines).

About VocRehab

The program in question is called VA Vocational Rehabilitation & Employment (VocRehab). This is a $1.5 billion program that helps disabled veterans gain access to suitable employment when they have an employment handicap. An employment handicap exists when a veteran’s service-connected disability affects their ability to gain and maintain suitable employment.

VocRehab Self-Employment

One option for the program is self-employment. Veteran approved for self-employment benefits receive tens of thousands of dollars in training, supplies, and equipment. To provide come context, VocRehab paid for my undergraduate degree, law degree and equipment for my startup law firm.

All in, I received approximately $350,000 in benefits, and you can imagine VocRehab’s sheer joy when I turned around and decided to represent veterans against the agency.

[Hint – They were not thrilled.]

Back in the day, some veterans received up to $100,000 to fund a startup, but it sounds like these numbers are lower today.

Self-Employment Now

I just met with the head of VocRehab, Jack Kammerer, last Friday. The was able to squeeze me in for a last minute meeting after the Board of Veterans Appeals forum I was flown out to participate in.

For the past two years, I have been talking with Kammerer about concerns I have had about the self-employment program.

Veterans have struggled getting the benefit in certain locations more than others. By looking at the numbers, you will likely wonder exactly what I was wondering, “Why are veterans in Manila getting approved for self-employment more than Boise, Idaho?”

The background here is that VocRehab encouraged self-employment benefits until the Government Accountability Office slammed the program for some instances where veterans received improper benefits allocations. Now, some veterans are being misled by their counselors that VocRehab is disbanding its self-employment program.

This is not true, but it has not stopped VocRehab employees nationwide from obstructing access to those benefits.

As an aside, I created a pro bono portion of my practice representing veterans who are 100 PT who sought self-employment benefits where VocRehab denied them arbitrarily.

Anyway, here is a partial FOIA list of the locations that are worst and best for approving self-employment. Veterans at each location need to adjust their expectations accordingly.

If you are in Detroit, the odds may be higher to get approved. If you live in Boise, you might as well wait for hell to freeze over unless Congress gets involved in a major way.

Worst VA Regional Offices

2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 Total
Boise Regional Office 0 0 0 0 0 0
Wilmington Regional Office 0 0 0 0 0 0
Albuquerque Regional Office 0 0 0 0 1 1
Anchorage Regional Office 0 0 1 0 0 1
Boston Regional Office 0 0 1 0 0 1
Chicago Regional Office 0 0 0 1 0 1
Ft Harrison Regional Office 0 0 0 1 0 1
Little Rock Regional Office 0 0 1 0 0 1
Milwaukee Regional Office 1 0 0 0 0 1
Pittsburgh Regional Office 0 0 1 0 0 1

 

Best VA Regional Offices

 

2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 Total
Detroit Regional Office 8 14 7 16 4 49
Manila 3 4 5 3 5 20
Cleveland Regional Office 4 4 5 2 1 16
Togus Regional Office 3 6 3 2 2 16
Honolulu Regional Office 2 2 3 4 3 14
San Diego Regional Office 1 2 3 3 5 14

 

What is your self-employment experience with VocRehab? Did you get what you needed or were you quickly escorted out of the office? Why is Boise seemingly hating on entrepreneurial disabled veterans?

RELATED: Boise VA Regional Office Leadership

If you are in Boise and concerned, perhaps contact Regional Office director Kathryn Malin, Congressman Mike Simpson, or Senator Mike Crapo.

Overall VocRehab Self-Employment Statistics

How do you feel about where your regional office compares?

99 COMMENTS

  1. Sure seems just like VA Medical Care in that it’s quite literally a crapshoot from one VAMC to another whether a Vet receives good, marginal, or crappy care. This further sheds light on the systemic problem with the VA System. It’s not so much an even playing field system when quality of care and approval of such benefits as VOCREHAB depend so highly on whom you talk to and what level of corruption exists from location to location.

    A true VA System should not matter one bit whether a Vet is living in Idaho, Detroit, or Manila. Why is it the SSA/Social Security System is just that, a System in which it is “Standardized” across the board, exact same no matter where you live but the VA cannot do this? Seriously, why?
    Why is it that often when a Vet moves to another State with already a % for Service Connection from original State’s Regional Office but when ,moving to another State that new VARO often arbitrarily wants to overturn and take away benefits awarded already? Should this not be a true “System” and not a crapshoot system?

    • Benjamin- Does the full FOIA document show even more important stats and breakdowns as far as any disparity between the total number of Vets whom applied at each location in relation to how many approved? That question may be a given but as I was becoming more caffeinated this morning the thought came to me that comparison that breaks down approval AND rate of denials within entire pool of Vets applying from location to location? Thanks.
      What I am saying is if for instance in Boise, a total of 12 Vets applied and were all denied but say in Albuquerque 10 Vets applied and -1- Vet was approved, then is it one in ten Vets lucky enough at minimum to win the VOCREHAB Lotto or is the problem so systemic such predictability is impossible when if for instance at the Detroit VARO out of every 12 Vets applied, 10 are approved or is this based entirely on the socioeconomic regional areas of each VARO and not National Trends in workforce?
      Sorry so many questions but that’s why I have so much trouble with statistics or polls because they can be pretty malleable depending on your personal bias and what you are and are not looking for.
      Thanks again.

  2. I was told we need to get your case closed. This was after being told the VA does not offer self employment help and the va will not set you ip with a hobby, there was just to much fraud up the program. This was all in the first 1/2-hour of the initial meeting.

    They were concerned with the height of my toliet however and grab bars. Mine you I am not physically handicapped. I am just nuts.

    I never went back.

  3. I think they might have better luck if they shift some of the workload from the Licensed Clinical Social Workers (LCSW) to the equally qualified American Federation of Government Employee (AFGE) janitorial staff. In trial runs at select VA facilities the cleaning staff actuall outperformed the LCSW on aptitude scores and knowledge.

    Obviously the Vocational Rehab program is cobbled and bogged down by corruption and bogus claims, and that is just on the VA side of things! Imagine how much worse veterans make it,when they show up too! VA is working hard to unclog the system, which again point directly to the janitorial staff who is equipped to handle even the nastiest clogs.

    A side benefit to rhe AFGE cleaning staff/vet treatment pilot program is the possibility to expand the program into the pharmacy department who now has chronic problems filling prescriptions vecause the pharmacists are writing them instead of using the time to fill them. Who could have guessed that would happen (VA employees please put your hands down).

  4. Ben Love the new format but have to ask what happen to the ability to search prior Articles?

    The ones that older than 30 days.

  5. Did your credit have anything to do with the amount of money you received?
    In other words i have very, very bad credit from Dept. Children & Family Services but i don’t
    owe what they say i owe because $66 a month turned into $300 a month and my daughter is in
    in college now, $14,256 turned into $67,000 over night, Hmmm, I wonder what’s going on?

      • I’m sure you will find out more about it when you get arrested and sent through one of these new Veterans Courts. With special procedures outside the laws that govern civilian courts, to handle Veteran’s.

      • Sorry, Ben. I just now realized we can click on the FOIA embedded doc on page to view different pages. I orig. thought that was nothing more than a screenshot.

        The $$ cost for this program, yet relatively LOW # of Vets approved somehow just does not seem to add-up. 376 Vets in 5 years? Is it just me does that seem really low?
        Kind of makes one wonder if some sort of employee bonus program is being rewarded using this program rather than actually more Vets utilizing and benefiting from it.
        Another thing is when you just look at Detroit’s high number of enrollment/approval and the rather bleak economic environment surrounding Detroit area these days compared to small # in Phoenix, it just makes no sense how this program is being utilized. (not to it’s fullest potential, I say)

      • I would also love a break-down of how many Vets approved for program were relatives of VA Employees. I am thinking nepotism has to enter into this somehow since it’s the VA.

  6. Appears as if the numbers in total are very off kilter.
    I am speaking of the total number of all approved, without regard to race or SDC.

    We are looking at 376 total in all. This number seems to be a very low number considering it is for the complete V.A. system. I know that tens of thousands across the whole V.A. must be applying for it.

    I am in Voc Rehab and will apply for the self employment tract when I am finished. I am lucky in that my counselor is Disabled Air Force, 100 percent Disabled Vet and used Voc Rehab to go to school to get his job.

    I also know he has over 250 on his case load. Can you imagine now why they tell us lies. Can you imagine the paperwork for all those VETS.

    Like I stated I am lucky with my Voc Rehab Counselor. He will at least try to get it for me. I do know that.

  7. Self employment requires an entrepreneurial spirit. Disabled veterans will face obstacles in obtaining jobs and once in a job face Machiavellian H.R. managers who want put out those employees with costly medical issues. The VA should recognize this and developing the skills and mind set necessary to succeed.
    The concept of self employment, working and striving to be your best is alien to most VA employees administering this program.

  8. Question for you Ben: Does the VA bill you for responding to your FOIA requests? If so, why would they do that since you are providing them as an educational service for veterans?

  9. Ben, it seems this is akin to what our friend Asknod had to deal with regarding his recently won war for a VA approved ADA Greenhouse.

  10. I applied for self- employment. They kept me jump through hoop and up the ladder… providing them several various business plans. Instead of helping me develop those they insisted I go to school for non-profit management. I commuted from my home to the school for over a year. Round trip was 250 miles. I never got a reimbursement for this mandatory training. Then they went silent. Finally after over 2 years they said they did not know how to to write the plan for my non-profit : The Portraits of the Fallen Memorial – saying we don’t know anything about non-rpofits. SO, they offered o send me BACK to school, approving a MFA in Cinema. However, I was never provided this info (re MFA) and got into a program which Im not suitable for. After a medication mistake committed by a VA Neurological intern, I got gravely ill…and the program Im in placed me on a medical leave with a one year timeline ( Dec 6, 2016) to finish the incomplete. Voc Rehab was informed for months that i having getting strange medical symptoms. BUT they never replied. The mistake resulted in cognitive impairment, glaucoma, neuropathy both feet, and other things. Voc rehab never provided me any paper work regarding my status. They also cut off my subsistence , which according to the info I read in the book you have , is that during a incomplete subsistence should have been continued. Currently Im taking in a 2 unit elective writing class. The Neurologist ( outside va) recommended I do something creative to help my brain repair itself. It has been working. HOWEVER- Voc Rehab wont do the paper work placing me on reduced work trainging so I can get my subsistence. NOR have they even sent me denial notices for all the things Ive been denied by them not acknowledging my status. IT HAD BEEN A NITEMARE. I request a aid to ride the train with me to school ( due to my memory and vision) , i had to pay for the help out of pocket. ALSO- I had to pay out of pockets for the transcribing, editing of my work, supplies. Im not sure how i can recover without help. The commute is costing me and without the subsistence It has been challenging. ALSO< Ive been trying to navigate the Choice program, which in itself needs to be exposed. Om outside seizure Dr ordered a Ambulatory 48 hr (The VA does not do these) EEG in JUNE 2016. I have yet to have this important test completed, as Im also having sub- clinical seizures due to the medication mistake. If you or ANYONE out there can help me, I've been trying since Jan of this year to get response from Voc Rehab and necessary and appropriate care for the conditions presented after the medication mistake. Im sure doe of you may have gone throughout this, and perhaps can give me some direction, as of now nothing is working on my end. Best to everyone.

  11. The VA receives a lot of taxpayers monies for this FUBAR
    So, in my opinion, “Follow the money” seems appropriate in this instance!

  12. Perhaps the problem is that VA needs a business plan it can understand. The following is a ten point business plan written in a style that is easily understood and sell to VA, and America, and if anyone would like to copy my business plan please send me a self addressed stamped envelope with 2.4 billion $$$ in unmarked currency.

    Dear VA, here is my Voc/Rehab business plan (Ben, feel free to offer pro bono advoce here…)

    1) I am going to start a business to help vets.
    2) In the first fiscal year I plan to lose 17.3 billion $$$.
    3) I will hire more staff and ask VA for more money.
    4) In the second fiscal year I plan to lose 19.8 billion $$$.
    5) I will hire more staff and ask VA for more money.
    6) In the third fiscal year I will open he doors of my business to vets for the first time.
    7) I will end up hurting vets who complain, necessitating a police response. Local police will not cooperate so I need to hire my own private security force. I will ask VA for more money.
    8) In the fourth fiscal year, I will lie to VA and tell them I am helping veterans with my business. VA will concur and give me more $$$.
    9) Succeeding fiscal years should at that point present no further problems, and except for yearly budgetary adjustments to salaries, cost of living, maintenance, purchases, vacations, and union dues, the business should be able to function then wih just a minor VA involvement. I will hire staff to process money requests to VA.
    10) In fiscal year five I plan to run the entire business model past the brain trust at RAND to determine continued viability. I will ask for more $$$.

  13. Hey, Seymore
    This just out from “Fox News”, 28 Oct. 2016 at noon.
    “BOMBSHELL! Trump Announces FBI Reopening of Clinton Email Investigation!!!”

    (12:04 minutes long)

    The amount of corruption persisting within all our government agencies is about to be known. Yesterday, Newt Gingrich rattled off a few of the most corrupt. VA was one of those mentioned.
    It might be, that FBI director James Comey has been taking his position for granted. He has probably been “under that microscope” himself. The pressure he’s been receiving, from Congress and others, may have opened his eyes to the criminal corruption committed by Hillary Clinton and many others!
    Let’s hope and pray he, and the other FBI agents, DO THEIR DAMN JOBS – THIS TIME!

    • Hey Elf,
      I saw that and see that there is more info coming out by the minute.

      It is a great Friday Poo cover day to do a few releases of things they don’t want to talk about.

      Like “More bonuses for VA employees despite ongoing problems at the agency”
      Bill Theobald , USA TODAY 3:39 p.m. EDT October 28, 2016″

      and the Pentagons current release.

      “General is most senior Army officer to kill self”, Tom Vanden Brook , USA TODAY 2:44 p.m. EDT October 28, 2016

      The General was being promoted from a two star General to a Three Star General in on Monday and then starting his new job in charge of all the Nukes. Guess he didn’t want to be part of the Obama plan.

      • Personally I would prefer that we not put a suicidal General in Charge of our Nukes. Also I have to wonder why we were doing just that.

      • Elf,

        When they put a suicidal General in Charge of our Nukes is that an example of Counter-Intelligence?

    • That Anthony ‘Weiner’ is a trainwreck that just keeps plowing-away at terminal velocity. I wondered just how long it would take for Hillary’s Aid, Weiner’s wife or soon-to-be ex, to get caught-up in the continuing trainwreck plowing-away.

      • Namnibor,

        She already is caught up in it. Check google news.

        Also since you mentioned “Terminal Velocity”. Any one flying this weekend really should double think it. At least think about waiting a few days until they find out what kind of virus is affecting these planes.

        “Pence Plane’s Skid Shows Risks of Tight Runways at LaGuardia”

        “bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-10-28/pence-plane-s-skid-shows-risks-of-tight-runways-at-laguardia”

        ~~~~

        “FedEx cargo plane burns at Fort Lauderdale airport”
        “cnn.com/2016/10/28/us/fedex-cargo-plane-fire/”

        ~~~~

        “At Chicago O’Hare, American Airlines 767 catches fire on runway”
        “cnn.com/2016/10/28/us/ohare-aircraft-incident/”

      • Namnibor,

        Hopefully the terminal Velocity thing isn’t related to the $1.8 Billion Hillary had transferred to Qatar and is not some new middle eastern variant of the Arkancide Virus that affected planes right after Bill Clinton first took office in 1993.

        The virus that wiped out 11 of his former security team personal and the DNC chairman and Treasurer all within 4 months. Of course there was that investigation which was ongoing at that time.

      • @namnibor and Seymore
        I’m thinking Huma Wiener was emailing her hubby, the sick fuck, classified documents. While he was with her and the “Butcher of Benghazi”!
        I don’t believe Comey reopened the investigation without reasonable provocation.
        Of course, the Dumbocrats WILL, more likely than not, ‘spin’ this against Mr. Trump. As we have now witnessed earlier today.

      • Way too much Weiner. Watch, both of them will get appointed to some higher management VA job if Hillary wins. Anthony Weiner will then be later caught in an all glass conference room emailing himself to the world….wait, that’s already happened before with the VA OIG at the VA….could it happen again? 🙂

      • Clearly Huma has a Weiner problem. Also when you look I look at her history there are some serious problems with it. Huma was born in Michigan but rasied in Saudi Arabia until she returned to the US for College followed by going to work in the white house immediately following college and was employed by the Clinton administration since 1996.

        Her parents were both college educator in Saudi Arabia and her father started a publication there. After his death her mother took over the publication and Huma was also placed in a position of importance on the staff there.

        The fact that her mother was an college educator in Saudi Arabia and now the owner of a publication outlet and that Huma is also connected to that publication. Means that her and her family have received special treated by the government of Saudi Arabia. In relationship to Huma’s mother teaching in College and owning a publication sanctioned by the Government of Saudi Arabia.

        Now throw in the fact that she came from Saudi Arabia and married a sex deviate like Weiner.

        There is also the fact of the Clinton Foundations fondness for Saudi money.

        Huma’s working at the foundation while employed by the state department and employed at the other place Tenneco. That means she has at least 3 email accounts on that she was using. I am willing to bet the Tenneco emails are the most enlighting. Also her emails to Saudi Arabia most be dosies.

        With how secretive and crooked the Clintons are I am sure Huma has a few secrets of her own that the Clinton’s don’t know about. But soon they will.

        I am willing to bet that there is much more to the emails

  14. One cannot get rebab if hurt on the job or a vet BUT you can if you have been incarcerated. To the tune of at least 500,000 million a year. This is a program by the federal DOL. I wonder just where the states or federal budget get the actual money to support this program? I only know of a few injured workers out of millions that got any rehab. The SSA has rehab programs but no SSA recipient ever got the memo including my self. It looks like one has to either go to jail for a while or come from in from another country to get the benefits that we paid for.

  15. In 1999, I went through the VR&E program, In Rapid City, SD, and graduated cum laude with two Information Technology Bachelor of Science degrees. In June I found out that if my disabilities worsened to the point that I could no longer work in the field I was trained in, then I could be re-trained in a field I could work in, specified in Chapter 31. In my initial meeting with a VRC in Memphis, TN, the VRC told me I was ineligible for VR&E, because I am 100% P&T and I am already trained; evidenced by my having a Bachelor of Science degree already – even though I cannot work in the field. The VRC also said that I can teach myself off of the Internet, and I don’t need to go to school. The VRC also stated that the VR&E program is strictly for helping veterans obtain employment, and is not to be used for education. If I want more education, I had to use VEAP or GI Bill benefits. They further went on to tell me I could start my own business, and enhance my skill as I learned more from the Internet.
    I had the regulations that applied to me printed out, and the VRC refused to look at them. The VRC accused me of being condescending and implying they didn’t know their job – well “Duh!”. It has been a month and a half since the meeting, and the VRC still has not entered denied in the system, so I cannot file my Notice of Disagreement.
    Even though the VRC stated I could start my own business now (which I can’t, as I would alienate clients; due to amateurish work), no mention of the VR&E Self-Employment Track was made. The VRC is following the VA’s traditional method of deny, deny, deny, until they die.

  16. I-Team: VA Continued Paying Construction Company Fraud After Conviction

    By Louisa Moller, WBZ-TV
    October 28, 2016 11:28 PM

    “CHELSMFORD (CBS) — A Chelmsford company convicted of posing as a veteran owned business in order to obtain more than $100 million in government contracts continued to receive money from the Department of Veterans Affairs after it was indicted and convicted, the I-Team has learned.

    In 2012, David Gorski, the vice president of Legion Construction, was indicted for Conspiracy to Defraud the United States.

    Investigators said Gorski asked two different disabled veterans to pose as owners of the company all while he operated it.

    Between 2005 and 2010, investigators found that Gorski and his co-conspirators fraudulently obtained roughly $113 million in government construction contracts.

    Even after the indictment, Legion Construction continued to be awarded money from its existing government contracts. The I-Team learned the company obtained more than $5 million post indictment and more than $100,000 after his conviction, according to USASpending.gov.”

    Full article at: “boston.cbslocal.com/2016/10/28/i-team-chelmsford-construction-fraud-veteran-owned-business/”

  17. Candy Land back in the news.

    “Tomah police await toxicology report in probe of VAF death”,
    MIKE TIGHE, 10/29/2016

    “TOMAH — The Tomah Police Department and other agencies are awaiting toxicology reports in the investigation of the death of a 54-year-old woman who had been staying in the Veterans Assistance Foundation’s homeless veterans program at the Tomah VA Medical Center.

    Tomah Police Chief Mark Nicholson released that information Friday, along with other sketchy details, after medical center officials cited the death as one of the factors in its decision to terminate the VAF’s lease for the second and third floors of Building 407 for its homeless and treatment programs.

    The police department received a request on Sept. 26 from the Department of Veterans Affairs’ Office of Inspector General to help in a death investigation that had begun the previous day, according to Nicholson’s statement.”

    Full article at: “lacrossetribune.com/news/local/tomah-police-await-toxicology-report-in-probe-of-vaf-death/article_e8e49d01-03c6-5b3a-9dac-2b10209034a8.html”

      • When the VA police confiscated multiple drug stashes after I turned in my clinic for distrivuting the drugs on the street, within days the Chief of Staff of Roseburg ordered all evidence to be destroyed. The police investigation acknowledges that the evidence was destroyed under orders.

        We are talking about a major drug cache, a signed confession, a verbal confession from multiple AFGE employees to VA police as recorded in their own report. Yet, before any outside force could be brought in for prosecution, the evidence was ordered destroyed.

        How many felony crimes involving multiple drug stashes, multiple suspects, and an unknown number of vets victimized by out of date and scripts not correct, and how many also needed a social worker to get them drugs were just washed away from a police point of view when ALL evidence was ordered destroyed? We will never know. I do know that the investigating officer, Elijah Pannier, resigned immediately after the drug caches were destroyed (he was the ine who found them).

        VA is untouchable by the law and openly destroys evidence so absolutely jo prosecution can EVER take place.

        VA is above the law.

      • Dennis,

        I remember that from reading your posting of the police reports.

        They really do think they are above the law.

  18. The war on Veterans continues

    “Property appraiser’s office auditing disabled veterans” Friday Posted Oct 28, 2016, By Kelly Humphrey

    “People say there are only two certainties in life: death and taxes.

    Sometimes, however, the taxes part can be pretty uncertain.

    Such is the case with the approximately 800 “totally and permanently” disabled veterans who receive a 100-percent exemption to property taxes in Okaloosa County. The county property appraiser’s office recently sent letters to those veterans stating that they had until Jan. 23, 2017 to provide documentation proving they are still eligible to receive the exemption.

    That didn’t sit well with many veterans, some of whom were confused by the letter’s wording.

    “What part of ‘total and permanent’ don’t they understand?” asked Robert Frost, a Fort Walton Beach resident. “I received my 100-percent disability rating 14 years ago, and my condition is not going to improve. That’s what permanent means.””

    Full Article at: “nwfdailynews.com/news/20161028/property-appraisers-office-auditing-disabled-veterans”

  19. While some Veterans will have there primary care administered by Clinical Pharmacist and others will have it administered by Physicians Assistants or Nurses the Doctors at VA will be working for the Military Intensive Care Units via tele med.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~

    “Tele-ICU: future of intensive care”, NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, NV, UNITED STATES, 10.28.2016

    “For Airmen working in a hospital’s intensive care unit, getting a second opinion from an experienced physician serves as an invaluable commodity.

    Airmen at the Mike O’Callaghan Federal Medical Center on Nellis Air Force Base will have that opportunity thanks to a partnership with Veteran Affairs to bring the first Tele-ICU to the Critical Care Unit, improving the quality of patient care.

    “The Tele-ICU is a way to use an audio and visual computer network to fill gaps in coverage and offer a second set of eyes to intensive care units,” said Matt Goede, Veterans Affairs VISN 23 Regional Tele-ICU associate medical director. “There’s a central hub in Minneapolis, with nurses and physicians that monitor patients with rooms wired with a video camera, video monitor, speakers and microphones so that they can teleconference in if necessary.”

    Full article at: “dvidshub.net/news/213180/tele-icu-future-intensive-care”

    • Holy VA Bat Shit, Seymore Klearly!! Seems the VA Meat Grinder was impacted and the whole flood of impacted VA poo made quite the splatter pattern late on a Friday. Good internet scouring.

      As far as VA Telemedicine and in the Intensive Care Unit; I would rather be abducted by aliens and anally probed for weeks before using VA Deathcare. 🙂

      • Namnibor,

        Definitely impacted at the VA. Problem is all that is coming out just the little poos and that show that the patient is still very sick. Maybe after the election they will open the patient up and remove some of the major blockage. Like the Tens of Millions of Dollars they funneled to Brazil to compromise their government through the interior designers at the black hole in Aurora for Brazilian rock and Brazilian wood.

        Oh and Namnibor got to be more careful about what you say about those doctors from the middle east and asia working at the VA. You know they are always looking for new ideas to make money doing research using Veterans. Don’t want them getting any ideas about leaving an endoscope up some poor Veterans behind for a week.

      • Namnibor,

        A great article on Brazil from the New York Times that is well worth reading after the Aurora Brazilian connection. Also don’t forget Anthony Weiner’s connection to both Brazil and his Saudi Arabian wife Huma.

        “Brazil’s Merchants of Death”, by Robert Muggah and Nathan B Thompson, Oct 23, 2016

        “RIO DE JANEIRO — As Brazil weathers the worst political and economic crises in living memory, Brazilians can hardly be blamed for being distracted. But there is a subject that the country’s politicians — and citizens — are not discussing, even though it risks tarnishing Brazil’s international reputation as an advocate of peacebuilding and diplomacy: an unchecked arms industry and its involvement in foreign conflicts around the globe.

        The fingerprints of Brazil’s largest arms companies are turning up in a growing number of the world’s hot spots, including Yemen, where thousands of civilians are perishing in a punishing war with no end in sight. An investigation last month into Forjas Taurus, the Brazilian firearms manufacturer, revealed that the company supplied weapons to a notorious Yemeni arms dealer.”

        Full article at: “nytimes.com/2016/10/24/opinion/brazils-merchants-of-death.html?_r=0”

        By ROBERT MUGGAH and NATHAN B. THOMPSONOCT. 23, 2016

  20. Seymore and namnibor.
    Here’s a couple of articles which defy reasoning.
    Both are from “Newsmax.com”, 28 Oct. 2016.

    “Free Beacon: Loretta Lynch ‘Pleads Fifth’ on Iran Ransom Probe”

    During her testimony, she basically tells all our “duly elected lawmakers” to “Fuck off”! Her irresponsible actions are a threat to our ‘National Security’, in my opinion.
    In the ‘comments section’, one person writes, who would be the worst attorney general, Holder or Lynch? I think, as another commenter expressed, both are in a dead heat.
    I say this because, a related article, is titled;
    “Loretta Lynch: DOJ NOT Required to Take FBI Advice on Hillary Prosecution”

    This, in itself, is a “flip flop” over what she stated BEFORE Director Comey made his ‘speech’ on all the “illegal acts committed by Hillary Clinton” back in July!
    So, I guess the “FIX IS IN” AGAIN!
    There is a ‘double standard’ when it comes to the “Clinton Crime Family!”
    I hope I’m wrong. Yet, it looks like the “Butcher of Benghazi” will, once again, be embroiled within multiple scandals.
    God help the United States of America, if she wins the White House!

    • Hey Elf,

      That is a great article thank you for posting about it. Definitely a must read.

      Reminds me of a few quotes on defining Tyranny.

      The first an unknown author “You know there is tyranny in America when the government Pleads the Fifth”.

      The second and third from Thomas Jefferson:

      “All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.”

      “When the people fear the government, there is Tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty”

      To be fair there is the Quote from Barack H. Obama, 2013 on his thoughts and statements on Tyranny.
      “They’ll warn that tyranny always lurking just around the corner. You should reject these voices.”

    • Oh and Elf,

      Rumor has it that the Clinton’s will be indicted, arrested and tried after the new president is elected and inaugurated. That way one of their co-conspirators will not be able to pardon them for their crimes before leaving office.

      • That depends. I could see Obama issuing a pardon on his last day for anything she or her circle MAY have committed.
        It prevents blowback on him.

        On these emails, I’m curious if the FBI got wind that wikileaks or others had more damning emails they were going to release.
        They said they would result in Hillary getting arrested.
        I suspect the FBI decided to have another look and not look more stupid.

      • 91Veteran,

        Not sure Obama can grant a pardon for a crime that a person hasn’t been charged for, but maybe. I do believe he would pardon her if she were already charged for sure.

        As far as the 33,000 emails they are all still accessible no matter what the press says. The tech from that company had uploaded all of them to a G-mail account. Even if he deleted them from the account the FBI still can access them with a proper warrant.

        As a Tech myself I know of at least 3 other places that they are currently stored and in fact someone did publish an article about it. Of course all 4 places where they are currently in storage would require a warrant to access them.

        Lastly we all know that the NSA has them recorded and can access them.

        Also notice how Huma has disappeared. She knew everything she was taking part in was highly illegal. She may already be in custody or even have fled the country back to Saudi Arabia.

        Given the DOJ didn’t want the case reopened and the FBI did it anyway there is some hope the FBI is doing the right thing. I do not think the director would stand up to his boss and take this extra ordinary step unless something major is involved.

        Monday Morning we will hear that he has been called to Congress to update them.

      • I agree there were at least 4 devices where her email was stored. That tech copied those emails to a device for her lawyers, and it was that device that was wiped using BleachBit. An Apple Mac was sent to the Clinton foundation in NY, but someone claimed it was lost in the mail and the FBI didn’t pursue it. The FBI also never went to her house to seize her server, and never bothered to go to Datto where Platte River backed up her emails.
        The whole investigation was so grab-ass they either took the word of witnesses or never bothered to search known locations of evidence.
        As far as the FBI doing the right thing, I don’t think that’s why they reopened it at all. If they were doing the right thing, they wouldn’t have let so many skate from clearly mishandling classified information.
        No. I believe the FBI reopened their investigation because they found out something is going to leak, making them look even more stupid than they do now.

        As for Huma, it’s been reported she used at least 4 email addresses. I wonder if she also mixed classified info across all those accounts, and if Comey Fife bothered to review each account.

      • That’s what many Utube “Alt-right” news sources are saying.
        Also, it seems Huma and Anthony Weiner’s electronic devices held classified info. Information which was “forwarded” by Hillary Clinton.
        A violation of law. Plus, this means she committed perjury to Congress and FBI.

  21. This morning the wife watched a Utube video of Megan Kelly. Where the Dumbocrats are accusing Trump, or his followers, of “paying off Comey” to reopen the investigation into Hillary’s emailgate!

  22. I didn’t get any help at all in direction. Two failed attempts in direction that if probably helped by a counselor who actually looked at my neurobehavioral testing would have rejected in favor of perhaps farming or ranching. Or possibly writing free lance.

    • Elf,

      I have been having some problems also.

      In fact when Trump and then Biden were suppose to speak the cable and internet went down in my area. So now if I want to hear what was said I have to watch and listen to some Press-ta-itute tell me what was said and what I am suppose to think it means.

      Same thing happened the other day when I was listening to Trump speak.

  23. Does any one know how much it is costing us taxpayers to Fly Obama, his wife and the Vice President all over the country with their security details and advanced planning and co-ordinating and paying for the additional police presences and security at all of these campaign events?

    Hopefully they will hire a few temps to make sure the work we are paying for gets done.

    • For that matter one has to wonder how much it cost to hire someone like Anderson Cooper to commit treason while he is filling his role as the Clinton Campaign’s spokesperson over at CNN, (Clinton New Network) or to hire Andrea Mitchell to Press-ta-itute herself while flying with the rest of the snakes on the plane.

    • Seymore,
      I know that back in the late ’70’s”, it cost taxpayers over a $1 million to move AirForce One out of the hanger and onto the tarmac.
      That cost is probably much higher today.

  24. Elf,

    It sounds like you have been bitten by a virus. You need to run a virus scan. Let me know if that doesn’t work.

      • Good to hear, on a lighter note!

        “Comey Praises Brave F.B.I. Agents Who Had to Touch Anthony Weiner’s Computer”
        By Andy Borowitz , October 28, 2016

        “newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/comey-praises-brave-f-b-i-agents-who-had-to-touch-anthony-weiners-computer”

  25. Here’s a Utube video the misses sent me. It’s definitely worth watching.

    “RED ALERT Why Is Obama Threatening Russia With World War 3 Right Before The Election”

    Published Oct 28, 2016
    (12:34 minutes long)

  26. While the press-ta-itutes are playing semantics while covering Weinergate. Obama is moving up his time table in the middle east. There is not a single word in the US press about this.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “US orders departures, warns travelers due to security concerns in Turkey”, Security, Kauit News Agency,
    10/30/2016

    “Washington, Oct 29 — the state department has ordered the departure of family members of employees posted to the US Consulate General In Istanbul,”

    “kuna.net.kw/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=2543707&Language=en”

    ~~~~~~~

    “US orders evacuation of Istanbul diplomatic staff families”, RT News Service, Published time: 29 Oct, 2016 21:54

    “https://www.rt.com/usa/364706-istanbul-diplomats-families-leave/”

    • I believe most of us here knows what happens next, after we order our state department family members out of a country.

      • I see that Turkey is into step 2 on the escalation:

        “Turkey sacks 10,000 more civil servants, shuts media in latest crackdown”, By Humeyra Pamuk | ISTANBUL, Reuters, Sun Oct 30, 2016 | 9:42am EDT


        Turkey said it had dismissed a further 10,000 civil servants and closed 15 more media outlets over suspected links with terrorist organizations and U.S.-based cleric Fethullah Gulen, blamed by Ankara for orchestrating a failed coup in July.

        More than 100,000 people had already been sacked or suspended and 37,000 arrested since the failed coup, in an unprecedented crackdown the government says is necessary to root out all supporters of Gulen from the state apparatus.

        Thousands more academics, teachers, health workers, prison guards and forensics experts were among the latest to be removed from their posts through two new executive decrees published on the Official Gazette late on Saturday.”

        “reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-dismissals-idUSKBN12U04L”

    • Seymore
      This is explained in the Utube video I gave y’all.
      Y’all need to watch the Utube video beginning with “RED ALERT”
      It explains what Obama and all his cronies are up to.
      With the articles you’ve supplied us Seymore, a WORLD WAR is right around the corner. This means Obama can stop the election and enforce martial law, as per his “executive order” he signed last year!
      I believe we are in for a real troubling time!
      May God have mercy on us all.

  27. Seymore
    A brand new Utube video from Fox News Exclusive

    “Two-On-One w/Trump & Pence 10/29/16”

    Great video! Veterans healthcare was #2 on their list to accomplish in the first 100 days in office!

  28. Seymore,
    I found out where Huma Abedin is located. She ran back to “…her New York Home…”, according to “Daily Mail Online” news source.
    In the article, she seems “…solemn…” since the news broke about the “…10 emails…”. Which are one her laptop. According to a new revelation from “Fox News”! In my opinion, this shows guilt by her!
    Fox News has reported “…some of the emails appear to be from Hillary Clinton!”

    It also looks like the inner circle of the FBI, and other security agencies, are revolting against the corrupt DC establishment.
    According to “Infowars.com”, Alex Jones, there’s “a war going on…” within the many agencies, against their bosses, to stop Hillary and the rest of the “DC corrupt cabal”!
    Many know Alex Jones has individuals who are willing to get the truth out to the American Public (Without breaking the law)!
    Also, CNN (Clinton News Network) is reporting Trump “…is surging in key battle states…”, proving they can, once pushed, tell the truth occasionally.
    As far as Huma is concerned. She, along with that pervert of a husband, needs to leave America. That’s my opinion (after they “spill the beans” on everything they know about “Corrupt Hillary & Bill Clinton”)

    • @crazy elf- No revolting of FBI against D.C. establishment…this smells of Comey covering his ass when he realized Hillary’s case would be reopened inevitably by Republicans. Seems more like the head of FBI simply playing a grand game of CYA, nothing more. That’s my take anyway. Clintons and Kevlar have a lot in common.

  29. Seymore, I agree. Huma should be prosecuted. I also believe she should be given the opportunity to receive less jail time. IF she is willing to “turn states evidence” against Hillary Clinton. We all know she, more likely than not, has detrimental information against the Clinton’s, Cheryl Mills, Podesta and many others in that circle.
    (Correction, Huma’s laptop, which she shared with her estranged husband, contains more than 10,000 emails.)

    namnibor, here’s a new video, Oct 29, 2016, from “Fox News” explaining the many criminal acts committed by Hillary, and her main circle of coconspirators.

    “SR 1302 – Rudy Giuliano – Crooked Hillary Should Be Charged With 16 FELONIES. Jail/Prison”

    (9:29 minutes)

    The Former Gov. and “Career Federal Prosecutor” lays out, step by step, the “charges”. Plus, he has “inside (FBI informants) information” which, in my opinion, show Comey needs to redo the fowl up he caused. Yes, one could say he’s “covering up his ass!” On the other hand, his testimony, under oath, in front of Congress. Showed all the illegal acts committed by Hillary Clinton.
    Therefore, (first) Would it not be “behovent” on his part to reopen, and possibly convene a Grand Jury + have a “Special Prosecutor” handle the FUBAR he caused in the first place?
    Of course, one could argue, only the DOJ could do that. On the other hand, a “Special Prosecutor” and “Grand Jury” could be, possibly, accomplished through any Federal Judge?!??!
    It’s also come to light, DOJ Lynch has admonished Comey for reopening this. It’s been reported, Comey wasn’t allowed to do this “…within the 60 day…” period before the election.
    On that note, I believe he WAS pressured by his peers. As was/is being reported by many news outlets.

    • What Lynch and the left are whining about should be pretty eye opening to many people.
      She is complaining about Comey Fife doing this against a candidate in an election, which may affect the outcome of that election, and says it was policy to not do anything public against a candidate that might affect the outcome.
      The article I read on this said Holder issued the policy, and they went back to Reno saying she shut down investigations during outcomes to avoid affecting elections.
      If we had an investigative media worth anything, they would cite examples of investigations being shut down, and by AGs from both parties, because I strongly believe Lynch and the media are full of shit about this and are trying to smear Comey Fife.
      I recall Toricelli being indicted where the Democrats illegally replaced him on the ballot too close to the election with Lautenberg. I recall the investigation into Gary Condit continuing, and him losing the election. I recall the investigation into Mark Foley continuing until he lost the election.
      I recall Larry Craig losing because an investigation continued.
      Lynch knows if it’s a Democrat, the investigation stops. She also knows the media would still pursue a Republican. Its nothing more than a policy to protect certain people, and a policy that would only be followed depending on who that person was, or what party they belonged to. If we are supposed to have rule of law in this country, then no unconstitutional policy should give special people protection from it, particularly politicians of either party, simply because we are close to an election.

      That’s banana republic crap.

      • 91Veteran,
        In my opinion, Comey Fife should continue on with the investigation. Because, “illegal acts” are/have been committed against the people. Our National Security WAS compromised by Hillary and her cabal, in my opinion, during her reign as Secretary of State.
        A law enforcement agency, no matter which agency, is duty bound to get to the truth. If charges are warranted, it shouldn’t matter if a defendant is running for a office. It also shouldn’t matter when the investigation is taking place, ie; during an election cycle is no excuse for stopping an investigation.

      • I don’t disagree with anything you said Elf, but Comey Fife should have never said he was not referring charges based on his press conference and testimony to Congress. It made him and the FBI look like political hacks.

        In a way, what has happened is having a much bigger impact than if he just continued on and never held his press conference.

        In the end, it was Hillary who set up the server, delayed, denied, lied and deleted 33000 emails.

        Whatever happens over the next two weeks, or more, is solely her responsibility.

  30. Fe Fi Fo Fum, I smell an immunity deal forth coming for Huma. No doubt one of those were they destroy the evidence so congress cannot get it. Would want any of those emails Pillary forwarded to Huma to handle from General Betraus.

    “Feds in talks with Abedin to get access to emails”, Kevin Johnson , USA TODAY 1:51 p.m. EDT October 30, 2016.

    “usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/10/30/feds-talks-abedin-get-access-emails/93014424/”

    • The emails dealing with the creation and arming of ISIL. June 10, 2014.

      We supplied them the Humvees, Uniforms, weapons, munitions and now they are all trained and ready to go into Syria. But first they will take out the Iranian military standing in the way between Mosul and Syria.

  31. Seymore,
    Here’s a couple Utube video’s out today.
    This is from CNN’s Jake Tapper. Podesta can’t seem to get Tapper to “play along” with the Democrats agenda.

    “John Podesta Gets Flustered with CNN’s Jake Tapper Over New FBI Probe on Clinton”

    This second video was a “Live Stream” on Utube about 2 hours ago.

    “Covering For Clinton? Lynch Warned Comey Not To Send Letter”

    (30:52 minutes long)

    I agree with Rep. Huckabee. Everyone should rent/watch the movie, “The Russians are coming, The Russians are coming!”
    This seems to be the “talking points” of almost all the democrats. Even though there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever……
    Plus, Is it the FBI’s policy to ask DOJ Director Lynch – “Mother, may I?” When trying to investigate a possible criminal act? I think NOT!

    • Here’s another Utube video –
      “Breaking News: FBI Has 650,000 Emails On Weiner and A bed in Laptop Linked to Clinton’s Email Server”
      (06:57 minutes long)
      (References; The Wall Street Journal & Washington Post)

      • Great posting Elf,

        Watched all the videos. Noted on the first one with podesta that there are a number of them being posted out there. The longer ones show podesta repeating this weekends primary talking points including a lot of statements with the terms, um, um um and, um um um oh and, and um um um, aaah um aaaah and,.

        Well watching the Videos you listed also watched a number of other that followed them on the different networks.

        But I do have to say one thing about your last post where you say “That should read
        “Weiner and Abedin Laptop”.

        I don’t agree with you it should say FBI finds missing apple computer though lost during Clinton Email investigation containing all of her deleted emails.

  32. Now with the weekend nearing the end after such a strange pre-election event where top Clinton aid Huma Abedin got her Weiner caught in a category 2 poo-storm. Giving team Clinton a chance to demonstrate their Federal Emergency Management skills to support Huma by slamming the door hard on that Weiner thing that reared its ugly head.

    With the revelation that Federal Officials, no doubt from the DOJ, stepped in with claims of rushing to access the offending material contained on devises used by the sexually depraved Weiner. Likely, as in the recent past, leaving Huma wrapped in a warm secure blanket of immunity and promises that the DOJ will dispose of the offending material following their intercept of the evidence from the FBI. Material never to be seen again by the world or Members of Congress; Or so Team Clinton thinks and hopes not knowing about what maybe instore with a future WikiLeaks grand slam of more than 1000 Pillary and General Betraus Petraeus,( who had his own weiner problem), emails. Which will undoubtable be Cat 5 Plus in the poo-storm rating system.

    “Feds in talks with Abedin to get access to emails”, Kevin Johnson , USA TODAY 1:51 p.m. EDT October 30, 2016.

    “usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2016/10/30/feds-talks-abedin-get-access-emails/93014424/”

  33. Seymore,
    Wouldn’t it be something IF the Clinton’s, Mills, Podesta and others were arrested this week. Then we’d have that idiot, or the “Fourth Stooge”, from Virginia, Tim Kaine running for POTUS. LOL!
    I can see the headlines now. “Tim Kaine Steps Into a Hornets Nest!”
    And the first line of the article reads; “Tim Kaine fumbles the ball. He can’t seem to understand any, or all, questions posed by CNN!”

    • Elf,

      With those scabs on his inside lower lip looking like some kind of Venereal Disease. Also the way he talks out of the side of his mouth all the time making him look mealy mouthed. I am sure someone would almost immediately post a video of him pulling a Larry Craig at some kind of event or at some Airport.

      “Larry Craig scandal”
      “en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Craig_scandal”

      • I saw a video of him being asked about weinergate repeatedly by a few reporters.
        All he could say was he had to read up on it each time one the reporters asked.

        Maybe if he quit getting distracted checking out the pictures involved in wienergate and read a few reports on it he could answer a few reporters question on the subject.

      • Yeah, that Larry Craig was a KNOWN long-time embarrassing problem for Republicans and MANY covered for him for YEARS because that behavior of his was unrelenting like an obsessed sex-addict. The Larry Craig Creep Train Ride is leaving Halloween…Anthony Weiner is carrying the “torch”, err, wiener, to the finish line.

  34. Hey Elf,

    Great article published by The Intercept that is well worth reading.

    “When CIA and NSA Workers Blow the Whistle, Congress Plays Deaf”, Patrick G. Eddington, October 27 2016

    An exert from the article:

    “My own experience in 1995-96 is illustrative. Over a two-year period working with my wife, Robin (who was a CIA detailee to a Senate committee at the time), we discovered that, contrary to the public statements by then-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Colin Powell and other senior George H. W. Bush administration officials (including CIA Director John Deutch), American troops had in fact been exposed to chemical agents during and after the 1991 war with Saddam Hussein. While the Senate Banking Committee under then-Chairman Don Riegle, D-Mich., was trying to uncover the truth of this, officials at the Pentagon and CIA were working to bury it.

    At the CIA, I objected internally — and was immediately placed under investigation by the CIA’s Office of Security. That became clear just days after we delivered the first of our several internal briefings to increasingly senior officials at the CIA and other intelligence agencies. In February 1995, I received a phone call from CIA Security asking whether I’d had any contacts with the media. I had not, but I had mentioned to CIA officials we’d met with that I knew that the CBS newsmagazine “60 Minutes” was working on a piece about the Gulf War chemical cover-up. This call would not be the last I’d receive from CIA Security about the matter, nor the only action the agency would take against us.”

    Full article at: “”theintercept.com/2016/10/27/when-cia-and-nsa-workers-blow-the-whistle-congress-plays-deaf/”

  35. Seymore,
    ABC News just broke a major story.

    “Breaking; Warrant Just Issued for Hillary Clinton’s Top Aid Huma Abedin’s Computer”
    (06:04 minutes long)
    By; Gary Franchi of “Next News Network”
    on 30 Oct. 2016.
    Things are moving very fast now.
    Harry Reid, along with a number of other Democrats, are attacking Comey.
    What will come of this is up in the air. In my opinion, it doesn’t look good for “The Butcher of Benghazi!” I honesty believe this investigation concerns the “Clinton Foundation” and it’s corruption with the State Department. When Hillary Clinton was Secretary!

    Also, a “Special Report’ from Fox News.

    “Special Report 10/30/16 – Clinton to Comey ‘Put It All Out On The Table'”
    (47:10 minutes long)
    The interview with Rep. Trey Gowdy is very interesting, to say the least!

    • Elf,
      Great Great Article by Chuck Ross over at the Daily Caller and the supporting article published by the Wall Street Journal.

      “Report: DOJ Tried Repeatedly to Kill FBI’s Clinton Foundation Investigation”

      “Senior-level Justice Department Officials pushed back heavily on an ongoing FBI investigation of the Clinton Foundation, according to a bombshell report from the Wall Street Journal.

      The newspaper laid out numerous examples, based on law enforcement sources, of senior DOJ officials intervening to quash the probe.

      Prosecutors with the U.S. attorney’s office in the Eastern District of New York which Loretta Lynch led before taking over as attorney general last year refused to allow FBI investigators probing the Clinton family charity to review emails found on devices turned over this year by two of Clinton’s lawyers during the separate investigation in the mishandling of classified information on Clinton’s private email system.

      The rationale, according to the Journal, was that the devices were covered by partial immunity and limited use agreements that the Clinton lawyers Cheryl Mills and Heather Samuelson agreed to with the DOJ.
      Information recovered from the laptops could only be used in the email investigation and not in others.
      As part of the immunity agreement, the FBI and Justice Department agreed to destroy Mills’ and Samuelson’s devices, a revelation that sparked outrage”

      Full article at: “http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/30/report-doj-tried-repeatedly-to-kill-fbis-clinton-foundation-investigation/”

      With the new limitations on the new search warrant it is clear they will not let any of the emails found in the wiener-gate investigation from being used in the Clinton Foundation investigation. No doubt that Huma is all wrapped up in a immunity deal with the DOJ and no doubt the DOJ will again destroy the evidence to protect it.

  36. Also Wall Street Journal Article used in Ross’s report at:

    “FBI in Internal Feud Over Hillary Clinton Probe”, Laptop may contain thousands of messages sent to or from Mrs. Clinton’s private server

    At: “http://www.wsj.com/articles/laptop-may-include-thousands-of-emails-linked-to-hillary-clintons-private-server-1477854957”

    • Just an observation that my make the bad news all bad for Pillary.

      Some Federal Correctional facilities do allow pant suits. But I think she will have to buy her own depends for adults with problem leakage.

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