Clandestine C&P Examiner Website Uncovered

38
6160
Advertisement
Get the Voc Rehab Guide

C&P Examiner Website

Benjamin KrauseDisabled veteran Eric Hughes confronted Secretary McDonald over a secret, clandestine C&P examiner website, where VA examiners can swap stories about disabled veterans with no oversight.

[http://cpexaminers.wikispaces.com/] 

[Note: Website Was Taken Down, 12/19/14, see Facebook Group or PDF on Wiki]

Hughes uncovered this hugely secretive website and other resources used secretly by C&P examiners. The website and related resources uncover many examiners’ quests to uncover malingering among veteran PTSD claimants in a manner not supported by VA policy. VA Psychologists Mark Worthen and Brad Brummett are site administrators.

Worthen is a longtime critique of VA policy that requires VA to give the benefit of the drought and not interrogate veterans assuming they are first lying. On his blog, www.PTSDExams.com, Worthen writes:

Army Medicine’s Policy Guidance on the Treatment and Assessment of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) [OTSD/MEDCOM Policy Memo 2012-035] states:

Although there has been debate on the role of symptom exaggeration or malingering for secondary gain in DoD and VA PTSD Disability Evaluation System (DES) processes, there is considerable evidence that this is rare and unlikely to be a major factor in the vast majority of disability determinations. [emphasis added by Dr. Worthen]

This statement could not be further from the truth, and it is a shame that a National Center for PTSD publication provided the justification for such an inaccurate assertion by Army Medicine.

Despite the inestimable contributions of National Center for PTSD, if they have a weak spot [Emphasis added by Dr. Worthen] it is their penchant for minimizing or denying the extent to which veterans engage in misattribution, exaggeration, or feigning of PTSD symptoms during VA Compensation and Pension examinations (C&P exams) for posttraumatic stress disorder. The Marx & Holowka (2011) article exemplifies this denial and minimization.

Worthen is openly critical of the requirement that feigning detection tools not be used because they violate the law. His disdain for the law is likely well shared within certain mental health circles. However, the US Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims is clear: 

The Secretary has a duty to assist a claimant by providing a thorough and contemporaneous medical examination when the record does not adequately reveal the current state of the claimant’s disability. See 38 U.S.C.S. § 5103A(d)(1); Green v. Derwinski, 1 Vet.App. 121, 124 (1991); see also Caffrey v. Brown, 6 Vet.App. 377, 381 (1994). However, VA may not pursue such development if the purpose is to obtain evidence against the claim. See Mariano v. Principi, 17 Vet.App. 305, 312 (2003); see also 38 C.F.R. § 3.304(c) (2007) (development of evidence should not be undertaken when evidence present is sufficient for service connection determination). The record is inadequate and the need for a contemporaneous examination occurs when the evidence indicates that the current rating may be incorrect.

Instead, Worthen and those like him thumb their nose at the law and ignore the purpose of VA, to serve the widow and the orphan. Further, he denies the purpose of the claims process at the regional office to remain non-adversarial and in fact pro-claimant. In an article, Worthen complained:

VA officials at her site told this psychologist that “the use of instruments designed to detect feigning ‘do not give the veteran the benefit of the doubt’.” (Poyner, 2010, p. 131). This stance by at least these VA officials might reflect a misguided notion that C&P examiners are supposed to be providing clinical services, when, in fact, they are performing a forensic mental health assessment function. This political opposition to the assessment of feigning is not universal across VA facilities. However, if you encounter opposition, be prepared to explain in careful detail the importance of screening for exaggeration and feigning on empirical, ethical, professional, and public policy grounds.

Will Secretary McDonald take the necessary steps to rid VA of such deception and sedition of the goals of Congress? I think it’s time VA clean house.

[Download Letter to McDonald about Mark Worthen]

UPDATE: 12/19/14 – The administrators of the wiki pulled it down after this article was published.

Stay informed on VA news, scandals and benefits. Get our daily newsletter via email.

17343

DisabledVeterans.org

Get our free daily newsletter.

38 Comments

  1. Not surprised. George Carlin on PTSD and the labels for each war funny but not. I will not let one go, she is my fish to fry. But asking for help by the IG today I had my second C&P. Also that letter I held back because of denial. No I can’t work, a blow to my stubborn EGO. There is more, I think I should share in a private message to you, and then you shall see the depth of how I care and my knowledge. Thanks Ben! Worn out, and my damn legs give out, yup, Ms. Stubborn! She carries on and will help Veterans, its who I am! 🙂

  2. Well let me tell you. I learned the hard way that it’s the Examiners who do the lying on these PTSD C&P exams! I was shocked at how the VA examiner twisted the words around in many of my answers to his questions in order to construct or formulate a totally different meaning to what was actually stated by me. I think that’s called paraphrasing or something like that. What makes this so bad is that when you confront the lies or the liar about it, there’s absolutely nothing you can do to change any of it. Not only does a PTSD veteran have to suffer the symptoms of his ailment, but having to be on guard by what you know the examiner is fixing to do to you on his paperwork makes you increasingly more hypervigilant. It made me think about, “I’m fixing to get ambushed again!” That old back in the ‘Nam feeling. Getting sweaty, scared, raging inside. Because you feel like you’re “back in the bush” and ” back in the crotch” ( Viet-Nam). And I’m not talking about between old mama sans legs either!

    • now i know why i get so “nervous” going to any VA. you guys put it into words i can’t. hypervigilant is one good word you just used. ben and you guys understand where no one else does about this. i too was honest with VA. still am though i say little to them for that fear of how they twist. they wrote off MS as due to i used to “drink” and to a personality disorder. though mil med rec shows active duty spine injury and positive spinal taps for MS while in nav hospital. 20+yrs later VA agreed to MS but only after civilian evidence. VA would never do a MRI or spinal all those years. always deflecting any neuro symptom to anything but MS. like, job, stress, past drinking, past smoking, coffee, depression, personality disorder. like all of you here have said, we were honest and then one day we read some of the words these VA docs twisted and saw, what the hell was really going on. then started seeing civilian docs and getting more accurate info and presenting it to VA who denied even that. glad you guys shared it. i never could find a word to describe my sheer apprehension of going to VA these days. i get nervous just making an appt much less actually go there. for many of us, how could one ever feel comfortable and trusting there? i’ve harped on this same story i feel almost like a robot. i still have to go to the VA so letting it go is a little harder. and we know how adversarial they are. that’s just one website. out of how many other little “va groups” plotting?

      • Going to the VA feels like you’re re-connecting with The Military, and since when you’re there, you’re with a bunch of other people that also used to be in The Military, so, that’s probably at least part of why it feels creepy. My experiences with the VA have been that the people working there are very professional, are trying their honest best to help, and there wasn’t any ‘stuff’ from the staff, but I did meet one guy that I remembered from the service, and he was still just as big a jerk as I remembered when I wore a uniform.

        And, let’s be blunt about one aspect of this whole thing, some of the guys, yes, picking on guys, some of the guys that go through the service and emerge at places like the VA, were a bunch of jerks. Thugs, brutes, people who might have been given The Choice by a judge, basically, and, also say that the military can be and sometimes is an extension of the prison system. You go where you’re told, do what you’re told, dress a certain way, do this now, and and and. So, for anyone that’s seen that, felt that, or even experienced that, well, the VA is an extension of the military, institutional medicine. And we ALL love to go to The Institute, right? Right. Or, not so much.

        Politics and hierarchy within the VA. Remember all the politics in the military? The VA has people in it, so they have politics, too, and it sucks just as much as the military version.

        Maybe, though, the fact that it’s un-fun and reminiscent of things about the military that people did not like, will help them to be motivated in their civilian-veteran lives to stay healthy, self-supporting, and out of the way, so that the people with bona-fide, crippling, permanently debilitating conditions can have priority-of-care through the VA system. It is what it is, use it if you need it, but don’t’ abuse it.

  3. My C&P was a joke. Because I admitted to a drink on occasion the examiner labeled me an alcoholic. He twisted and added to my statements to meet his objectives. He hammered on my drinking when in service 44 years ago and ignored my combat experiences and events. I felt a total loss of confidence in the VA and any doctor they have. When I questioned him he labeled me confrontational and uncooperative.
    I have not given up and will try again. USMC Viet Vet.

    • Jim Bob, This happened to me also, But I wrote the Surgeon General in Wash,D.C, But the Dr. In Gainesville Replied to the S/G, That Me the patient was Moody, would not listen, and answered wrong to his Questions, I DID tell Him he was NOT WORTH A SH**.. Hell I have been home Longer than he has been a DOCTOR. I Did not give up, and BROTHER, don’t you give up. Sarge

  4. Hello guys! I have an idea! And I am encourage you to take it to anybody! (including the media)
    Why we don’t get rid of all the C&P branch all together? What is their purpose in life ?
    Are they worth their paychecks? Spying is an expensive business! And I know that
    as a Retired Intell Army(E-8)

  5. I whole heartily agree, the processes of examinations and help are pretty much one sided. When Jimmy Carter gave the V.A. the privlege of bonuses, he was ignorant in trusting human nature. He created a wall of separation between veteran and most V.A. employees. Joseph U.S. Navy 1966-1969

  6. Interesting, but not surprising. I will try join this wiki page, see what response I get and post it here.
    What is also interesting is when doing a search on cpexaminers.wikispaces, the only search result is a Facebook posting on November 13, 2012…2 days after veterans day, on the Association of VA Psychologist Leaders Early Career Committee stating the wikispace page was created by Brummett and Worthern. I am going to screenshot that page, then submit a FOIA to the VA for copies of all postings, a membership list, etc.

    The posts on that Facebook page appear to have been made around the same time as the wiki page, and even include a site to help those struggling with the shame if student debt.
    In addition, they appear to have an email listserv set up to send emails to a group.

  7. Interesting…I tried to look at the page but it required registration/account. Maybe they’ve recently locked it up. Yes, the claims process is very adversarial, in all aspects IMO.

    In response to the above poster, I’m absolutely in favor of getting rid of the C & P examiners…what a worthless process. Not that this will ever happen, mind you. But if it did, all the VA would have to do would be let veterans take DBQ’s to their own doctors (with instructions on how they are to be filled out), and rate according to what their doctors said. Boom–adversarial process removed, while still maintaining the integrity of the process.

      • Okay, that was a great belly laugh needed, my eldest son and his wife just lost there baby son due in April. I know the stats of it, but he is my HAWAIIAN CHRISTMAS baby, a very sensitive and caring man. ( don’t get on his bad side!) I called him the “negotiator in the family, settle fights between the two younger ones!
        First of all I DID WRITE ALLISON HICKEY WHO SOME LACKY OF HERS CALLED ME WHEN I AM EXHAUSTED, AND AS I SAY, “I HIT MY WALL.” THIS WOMAN STATED I WAS UNSTABLE, GEE AFTER I WAS ON THE PHONE WITH THIS NUT JOB IT WAS TIME TERMINATE MY CALL AND PHONE. NICE, NOW ITS NOT JUST MY LOWER BACK BUT UPPER BACK BY A BUBBA BOSTON. I AM THE HONEST TYPE, SAY HOW I FEEL. BUT IF EACH OF ACTED ON HOW WE FEEL WHETHER A NEGATIVE OR A POSITIVE, BE SERIOUS, IT DOESNT GET DONE. THIS TIME THE EXAMINER WAS VERY NICE, TYPED WHILE I WAS IN THE ROOM AND LORD TWO HOURS OF TALKING AND A TEST, PICTURES SHOWN BEFORE AND AFTER SHOTS I LOST 20 POUNDS AND LOOKED ANOREXIC. I SHOWED HER ALSO MY MASK OF BIG SMILES, BUT MY BRAIN LOCKED EVENTS IT CANNOT PROCESS YET. NOW AS FAR AS THE DBQ STATES FOR PTSD? YOU BETCHA I HAVE A COPY AND MS LIAR AND STORY TELLER WHO JUST PUSHED YOU ALL ON THE BAD IN LIFE-SHE CAN SOD OFF! I MIGHT SUGGEST THE SAME TO OTHERS IN THE FUTURE, WE SHALL SEE WHAT HAPPENS, BUT THANKFULLY SHE TYPED AS I TALKED. NO VEG STATUS, AMAZING!
        TRULY THE PLACES NEED BIG BROOMS TO SWEEP THE SHITE OUT AND PINK SLIPS! .

      • Now, here is how anyone who has had bold face lies written in your VA Records ( of any kind) but these professionals and I do mean all, go to a site and pull up their licensing and look for these things. 1. State where they have been lisenced in get that number and one more it’s called an NPI. Check to see what is written clearly wrong, added and then lies ANG giving you an obscure diagnosis for instance “BORDERLINE PERSONALITY TRAITS.” First of all the DSM HAS A DIAGNOSIS ACCESS TO BE FOLLOWED, and if not, write it down in connection on the state level, then also send it on the organizational level as well, for instance my exam, I wondered how she EVER MADE IT TO THE LEVEL OF A PhD BECAUSE SHE VIOLATED PROTOCOL FOR AXIS RATINGS. They cannot say in all areas NOR USE WORDS LIKE “TRAITS?” Examine every written word, compare it to ethics violations, state first then national level. Trust me, it’s a major stain upon them, and I most certainly would turn them in. Now because I know so much stuff in my head and studied these courses well, for a Psychologist to be reported look up this level called APA. If you need assistance, and yes I do know the privacy Act, HIPAA LAWS as well as PATIENTS RIGHTS AND RESPONSIBILITIES. Most do not know even when being treated what two doctors who have ruined my decline and stick with the other, certainly I am not done. Lord only knows laying in a bed waiting and trying to remain positive that I won’t loose the use of my legs. I am stubborn right to my very core and three times had to train myself to walk again right. But one leg is bad, and the other ISNT so hot either, after my second C&P exam of an all day event. I had a borrowed Walker, but had to use my cane. By the time I arrived home, cane WASNT playing fair! My left leg was giving out on me, and yup! Did a graceful fall!
        AS STATED, I am willing if BEN STATES ITS OKAY. I AM CERTIFIABLE Oops i MEAN CERTIFIED, in many different areas I would be glad to assist anyone.
        Blessings and have a great week, BEN HAS KINDLED MY FIRE! JUSTICE SERVED SHALL BE A BITTER PILL TO SWALLOW, OH WELL, NOT MY PROBLEM, THEY SAID “DO NO HARM,” WELL JUST SO THEY REALLY GET IT, I WEAR A LEATHER BRACELET THAT STATES, “DO NO HARM, BUT TAKE NO SHIT!”

        I had helped one you woman who I know might have gotten worried about me, because of what we agreed upon, I didn’t want her to become a statistic, so she found out and got what she needed, and this GOES WITH THE REST OF IT, CHECK FOR CEU’S AND SEE IF THEY ARE CAUGHT UP OR GIVEN STATE PASSES TAKE THAT TO THE NATIONAL PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION AS WELL, WE DO HAVE A RESPONSIBLILITY TO KICK THE TRASH TO THE CURB!

    • It is necessary in order to get an accurate assessment of PTSD or other psychiatric disorder to have examinations done by doctors trained to perform forensic exams. I cannot imagine many doctors willingly agreeing to perform an examination on his/her patient concerning a psychiatric condition. The veteran wants a higher evaluation while the doctor wants the veteran to get better. There is the inherent conflict of interest when treating clinicians become intertwined in the claims process. It is quite different with disabilities that can be described accurately by one doctor as well as another such as a heart condition, respiratory disorders, vascular disease or neurological conditions. Psychiatric disorders are vulnerable to inexact assessment so doctors trained to do examinations for disability rating purposes is necessary. But of course we sometimes end up with lousy doctors producing lousy reports just as some veterans do lie or exaggerate their symptoms to get a higher evaluation.

  8. “…where VA examiners can swap stories about disabled veterans with no oversight.” The Student Doctor Network has been doing this too. Ben, you are an attorney. Isn’t this against the law to exchange patient information without the consent of the said patients unless there is a threat of a potential suicide, murder or domestic abuse?

  9. Is there some way to contact Ben or for him to reply to me via email?

    It is shocking what is posted and available to the public at the Facebook page I mentioned in my other comment. I downloaded the file and am just disgusted by what is on that file that is available to anyone.

  10. Ben, your information is great, and to know that people like you are helping Vets rid this ongoing gauntlet of appeals, the years of waiting for a decision, and then only to receive a request for another 30min C&P exam that seems to supercede years of VA Psychiatrist sessions, and assessments, is a debacle. Not to belabor the obvious, I escalated to the Chairman of the VA Phsy. Department, the inappropriate and ineffective reviews of Vets by a certain C&P Dr. What the C&P Dr. [No names are necessary] didn’t realize was that by chance, three members of my group therapy sessions all had recent assessments by the same Dr. They were dismal! One Vet was wounded six times, was hounded with nightmares and awarded 10% PTSD – Later of course, overturned. This Dr. was also promoting their personal phys. business; soliciting Vets. Fired! But the real concern is the backlog of appeals that this incident initiated. The process itself is it’s own worst enemy. Thanks, Art

  11. This is only mildly surprising. About 6 months ago I discovered that anyone in the VA, anyone, can read my psychiatric record as well as all of my medical records. I was understandingly perturbed and remains d so for several months. I was under the impression that the Psych Doc and I had patient client confidentiality. That was the assumption because I was never told otherwise. Indeed, nobody told me that anyone on the VA can read any or all of my records. Why would a dental assistant need to read about my sessions with the Psych Doc? Had I not noted an statement by an audiologist and checked my records I would not have known even now. He mentioned something a psychologist had written about me.
    Every C&P exam has been more like interrogation that examination. If I answer a question truthfully of ten the doctor will as it again, and again,…
    A very minor example is “Which hand do you use, which is primary” I answered that I am ambidextrous. He asked the question again, this time with disdain and sarcasm. Finally, and with much drama he wrote “right handed and stated it aloud – as he gave me a look that said he resented me being there.
    When I ask for something, like a wheelchair, the doctors spend more time finding excuses why I cannot get what I asked for than they do examining me or (heaven forbid) reading my records. I was told, with regards to one needy request, that “as long as I am here you will never get a…….” In addition, records that clearly proved I had been issued one years before were somehow missing a few week later when I got a printed copy of my records. The same doctor also told me that “if I was here then you would not have gotten a scooter at that time either” Yes, I asked for a replacement for the scooter I had used for 10 years. I also asked for a power wheelchair in lieu of a scooter. I was told that when the VA issues something like this they would replace it periodically. I appealed the decision and the regional office pushed the case back to the local VA for them to make the call. The paperwork ended up on the doctor’s desk who said I would never get one as long as he was there….
    Ohhhh, there are just too many examples to write about here….

  12. The doctors quote Article 38 para 18 when denying my request for an equipped vehicle – like a van. In the last part of paragraph 19 it says that a vehicle may be provided for other reasons than those listed in paragraph 18. That statement is ignored and never ever mentioned to the patient. I wonder why?

  13. Cant get into the site:

    Access is Restricted
    You do not have permission to view this page.
    I’m sorry you do not have permission to access this wiki. Please ask on the Listserv for the names and contact information of the organizers and then request an invitation to join from the organizers. Thank you.
    If you need help, please contact us.

    Or you can visit our help area for more information.

  14. I read all about how the C&P exams for PTSD are designed for malingering and can tell you that after 4 VA Doctors which included my treating Doctor who is a MD and did 2 disability PTSD questionnaires which were summited on May 7 2012 and July 16 2012 stating I have PTSD and she marked me at 50% on both then retired VA Doctor MD did one and marked me at 70% but when I asked the VA why I had to have a C&P for it even after summiting evidence and the VA verified my stressors they the VA sent me a letter on the 27th of June 2013 after my C&P on the 22nd and said in the letter ( at times evidence may be too old and can not be considered and must be redone and that’s why you may have had to have a C&P. REALLY! When is evidence to old to be considered and one PTSD questioner was not even a year old when they denied my claim. The exam went like this, the examiner was 40 minutes late to begin with then when we walked to her little office she asked how I was doing and I told her if I was doing okay I would not be here seeing you. She said she was required to do this exam by the VA and then asked me how many foster homes was I in and after a few more question about my child hood and my marriages I realized she was asking questions from 2009 questioner done by a counselor ARNP who was not even qualified to do a PTSD questioner. when I tried to show he records from my treating Doctor and the PTSD questioner’s she said ( I DONT NEED TO SEE THEM BECUASE THE VA ALREADY VERIFIED YOUR STRESSORS.) then she had me wait in the hallway while she went from office to office looking for this truth or false questioner. she already had planned on me doing it before even talking to me cause she said she thought she had it with her. the exam lasted 13 minutes and 2 days later she summited a 67 page report and called me a malingerer and even though she said she reviewed my C-File I know she didn’t cause all the report consisted of was all my prior C&P exams. I just got done with a hearing with a DRO in the regional office and we went over all my claims at the same time and my attorneys believe it went really good and the DRO even agreed with them on the fact when I went into service I was considered 100%. We will see but I know how you all feel and still believe if the service records reflect you were injured or got disease while in service the VA intentionally uses the C&P exam to deny your claim and I can prove it.

    • Yes those so called c&p exams look for things to deny your clain I was denied twice on my kidney disease as secondary to my service connected diabebes the first exam they didnt do a gfr test and the second exam the did and it showed stage 3 kidney disease then i was told it was new so i was denied

    • I am a former VA employee (and retired Army Veteran with 1 tour in Nam). I am thinking back to about 2011 or 2012 when a psychologist at a Texas VAMC was busted for sending a VA email to all mental health employees to use caution when diagnosing PTSD. This so-called psychologist wanted to remind everyone in the mental health clinic that most veterans do not have ptsd, but, instead, are actually faking for the benefits. She later recounted [after being busted] and issued an email apology, saying she was “misunderstood” and actually wanted to “help” Veterans. (…yeah, right!). DOD and VA have standards of care and the APA has the DSM5. I have many times regretted retiring from the VA Vet Center program, where I was able to positively help Veterans escape the injustices of claims decisions gone bad. I feel this is part of the total care each Veteran is entitled to, as well as his/her psychotherapy.

      • I go to Ft.Worth,Tx clinic. Had a c&p there,,about 20 questions and out the door with a Thank you for your service. What a joke! Been seeing a real dr. since who corrected/overrode the c/ps ‘evaluation’. VA Waco,Tx has denied ALL my claims the Texas Veterans Commission has filed for me. So I have appealed as per Waco letter,,Nothing on this since last March. I will not waste my time and effort calling or writing Waco. Also sent to Waco 3 other evidence of peripheral neuropathy from other VA facility Dr’s and independent neurologist. DENIED DENIED DENIED from Waco. Comments please.

    • It has been taken down, but if you do a Google search using “cpexaminers.wikispace”, it pulls up a Facebook post where it is mentioned, including a link to “www.avalp.org” where their listserv is mentioned.

      I still think that wikispace page is a violation of federal open records laws, and a Freedom of Information Act request should be submitted by media to get a list of the members, along with copies of all posts made.

  15. sent a copy of a email from the sight to Jeff Millers office in Washington DC . This email tells C&P examiners not to put a veterans info on there when talking about a case which is also a violation of ethics and medical information regardless of a name not being mentioned.. This site is run by 2 VA C&P Docs and is VA wide yet not part of the VA email system and is for only C&P examiners. I talked with someone about this at Jeff Millers office who told me they know and are investigating it. I hope they got the fax and saw the email but we will see.

    • How do we get this mess into the laps of the national staff of all Veteran Service Organizations (VSO’s) ? Too bad Andy Rooney isn’t here with us now.

  16. VA is FUBAR. All my claims DENIED so I appealed as per Waco, Tx last letter. No communication from them since. No use calling /writing, ,no response ever. I persevere,, not a “quitter “. Carry On!

  17. Bert says, “My experiences with the VA have been that the people working there are very professional, are trying their honest best to help, and there wasn’t any ‘stuff’ from the staff.”

    Oh, aren’t you sweet, Bert. I think you work for VA or a VSO.

    • Nope! I’m not a VA employee, in any way. I’m relating my direct experiences from being seen at my local VA facility. They treated me pretty good. The modern computer appointment-stuff seems to help matters substantially.

  18. hey guys have c&p on june 2 been fighting with va for years 50% ptsd now, life no better now than it was years ago .now heres my story.first denied 20 years ago they said no records of being in nam then appeal got 10 for ptsd, appeal once again get 50 now i go once more lets see what happens this time, after 9 or 10 stays in va hospital for ptsd maybe they will get it right and maybe a good dream will come this time. dont need no more bad friggin dreams flashbacks panlc attacks and all the other shit that come with fighting these demons.thanks for letting me vent…

  19. This is a scratch of the service concerning the lies C&P examiners do. I think its common knowledge that these folks are paid by the VA to save the VA money and not give the vet the benefit of the doubt, it’s a racket the veterans administration has so that they can show congress how much they saved by turning down legitimate claims. Saddens me now that they are looking at taking away military retirement or disability saying you can’t have both!

Comments are closed.