Dallas VA Police Fire 19 Rounds At Man Seeking Psychiatric Care Killing Him
Dallas VA police shot and killed one man reportedly seeking psychiatric care from the hospital who was, unfortunately, carrying a knife resulting in a fatal shooting.
Video from the scene after the shooting revealed VA police fired an estimated 19 rounds at the man. Multiple VA police were involved. An investigation is underway by local law enforcement into the shooting.
Wednesday night, two VA police shot and killed Donald Ashcraft. The 51-year-old sought psychiatric care from Dallas VA, but was in possession of a knife. Rather than restrain the man using non-lethal force, Ashcraft was shot multiple times by two VA police officers.
Local reporters say VA hospital staff were alarmed at the man’s behavior and said they believed he posed a danger to VA staff and patients. No VA staff or police were injured.
Man Tried To Leave
After alarming VA staff, the man attempted to leave the facility. VA police apparently followed the man out of the building. Outside, VA police reportedly attempted to disarm the man when a confrontation resulted.
At least two VA police officers then fired an estimated 19 rounds at the man, striking and killing him.
The Special Investigations Unit of the Dallas Police Department is investigating the matter, which is curious if the shooting occurred on federal property.
As one commenter put it, “So he showed up for psychiatric help but was treated with a bullet.”
Another commenter wrote, “That’s seems like a lot of shell casings to stop someone with a knife. No tazers? No other less then lethal weapons? Multiple offers fired their weapons??? Seems fishy to me.”
Ironically, after the man was shot multiple times, rather than treat the man at Dallas VA, he was transported to a different hospital where he was pronounced dead.
According to the Dallas Police Department blog:
“According to the VA Hospital Police officers, at some point during their interaction with him, the subject started to walk off and VA Hospital police officers followed and tried to disarm the subject. According to those officers, their attempts were unsuccessful and they discharged their duty weapons striking the subject.“
Local reports fail to answer whether Ashcraft was a veteran.
It seems likely the individual was a veteran if he was trying to get treatment for mental health issues from Dallas VA. Even if he was not a veteran, the issue raises a lot of questions about the adequacy of VA police training.
Why did they fire 17 rounds at a man with a knife? Why did they not call Dallas PD when the man attempted to leave?
Over the past two years, VA police training has been in question following multiple disturbing reports that agency police are not properly trained where excessive force has resulted in the death of some veterans.
VA Police To Be Reformed
The VA Office of Inspector General and Government Accountability Office both critiqued VA police and made multiple recommendations.
On October 29, 2019, VA announced its plan to promote standardization and oversight. This shooting at the Dallas VA will be a good test to see if the agency is taking the critical steps necessary to reform its police force.
“The realignment will be the most extensive since the creation of the police force and will fundamentally change standardization and oversight across the enterprise,” said VA Secretary Robert Wilkie. “This highlights my commitment to the high standards of professionalism and transparency across the department.”
According to a VA press release, the changes will include:
- Implementing a police national governance body that will incorporate all department stakeholders to effectively manage and oversee policy issues.
- Creating a police modernization office specifically charted to develop and implement uniformed standards and address staffing challenges.
- Dividing the VA police force into four multi-state regions under the head of a regional law enforcement director. The regional director will serve as the gateway official providing strategic direction from the VA Office of Operations, Security, and Preparedness to the field operating offices.
- Placing a police chief in each of the 18 Veterans Integrated Service Networks who will be under the oversight of the Office of Operations, Security, and Preparedness and will provide direct guidance of law enforcement operations and compliance.
About Dallas VA Medical Center
The Dallas VA Medical Center is part of the VA North Texas Health Care System that employes approximately 5,600 people with 1,400 community volunteers. The annual operating budget of the system is $960 million with over 800 beds for veterans.
According to VA, they “strive to provide the right type of care for best possible health outcomes with attention to needs and life goals of Veterans.”
Was Excessive Force Used?
I am not a criminal attorney at this point in time.
For those of you familiar with law enforcement, I am curious to find out your thoughts on whether the Dallas VA police used excessive force in this instance.
Do we know enough to know whether VA police behaved appropriately?
See if WP is allowing posts or not.
Will we hear more about this incident and to clarify things like countless other reports? No.
News-speak and double talk. WFAA channel 8 Tx. Reports the man was 51 but no identity, odd?
He was taken to ‘another local hospital’ why not the VA? Odd. More news-speak.
“The man was identified Friday night as Donald Ashcraft.
At this time, the man has not been identified. It is also unknown whether he was a veteran or not.”
He was walking away then, now, he was attacking police when ‘multiple’ countless cops opened fire?
The it turns to “mental issues” of veterans or… how dangerous we all are?
It’s like a local story. Man holds co-workers and customers hostages at the KFC. For hours even after releasing all hostages. Huh? No rushing in after hours waiting then the man supposedly killed himself with said scissors? Name not released, of course. Nobody can deal with a guy with scissors surrounded by cops and holding off uncounted employees and citizens?
Oh hey. Virginia paper ads are wanting crisis actors. 250.00 a day, fifty travel. Oops we don’t live in American any longer. Lets all fall for news-speak, propaganda, the drama and being fed BS by all authorities concerned, the VA to DC and local clowns included.
The article leaves way too many questions for anyone to be able to even have an opinion about the use of force. Was he a Veteran? We don’t know. Was he a threat with the knife? Did the hospital have a history with this patient?
We have a lot of armchair cops posting that they would have done things differently. How do you know what you would have done? Have you been in that situation.
Why not just let the patient leave? If he has indicated he is homicidal or suicidal, it is now their responsibility to keep him from leaving.
Asking for opinions from uneducated readers based on minimal information in the article is just poor journalism.
VA Police are not allowed to carry tasers, because the director of the training facility in North Little Rock believes they are too dangerous to be used on people with heart problems!! ?. He also, is against wearing body cams for fear of HIPPA violations. I attended their academy in 2003. They have since put in new policies and extended the Academy from 5 to 10 weeks. It is a 400 hour Academy their schedule runs from 8-5 however, they are released from training nearly everyday at 4 sometimes as early as 3:30 however, every students station is required to pay over $13,000 before they are enrolled in that class.which is full price for a 400 hour course. Do the math if they are getting off that early everyday they are getting far less than 400 hours. Over 700 students attend just the basic Academy they always have two sometimes three classes going at the same time, and there are many other advanced classes and they also conduct the Air Force Police basic training academy. All in all they see 2000-2500 officers every year In other words it’s all about the money. The training is terrible. The men and women who enter the Academy do so on good faith I believe they all intend to do right by the Veteran, However, their training is terrible most of the instructors have no idea how to effectively teach mostly just read directly off the power point slide. Instead of blaming the police officer I think they should pursue charges against the Director of the training facility and his division chiefs. Most of the VA cops are great people they are just hung out to dry by their terrible trading Academy.
On the news a cop shot the home owner threw the window. The response there was a gun in the home. Bunch idiots. More welfare checks have ended up with dead citizens! Barney from Bayberry does better police work than these jack offs!
This is the type of intervention that we don’t need. Unless this Veteran was a really good and well known knife thrower that made attempted to throw one at them , why would they even pursue him. It seems that the VA Police are making some bad decisions on a nationwide level. Shocking!
oh how nice, guy was leaving and because he was irate towards VA mental health staff and they didn’t like his attitude.
Did he show his pocket knife to them tards and demand to be treated? not likely so he left and while the popo’s took the word of staff, they open fire on him. Let’s see said knife!
Sounds like a bunch of trigger happy pigs who had an itching to kill someone!
The message is clear, “If you value your life, do not seek care at the VA, especially if your are needing mental health care.”
The message is clear, “If you value your life, do not seek care at the VA, especially if your are needing mental health care.”
I was in Law Enforcement and yes it was excessive force. All they had to do was try to get him to surrender the knife. If that failed and he kept walking why would they follow him and forcefully try to take the knife. They could have let him go as long as he was walking off of the VA campus.
LOOK YOU ALL HAVE MISS IT 81 YEARS OLD AND TWO OR THREE SEC.POLICE COULDN’T BRING HIM DOWN WITHOUT GUNS WHAT IS UP WUTH THAT!!!!! THE REAL THING THAT MAKES MY SKIN REALLY CREEP IS THIS VA HOSPITAL THING IS GETTING WORST NOT BETTER THEY THROW MORE AND MORE MONEY AT IT AND MORE OF US DYE BECAUSE THE ONES WHO ARE INCHARGE TAKE THE MONEY THEY DON’T EARN AND KILL AS MANY OF US THEY CAN JUST FOR THE MONEY. NOW I AND MANY OF OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS HAVE TRIED AND TRIED TO SHOW HOW THE VA WORKS AND NO ONES LESSON AND WE ARE DEAD BEFORE ANY CARES ABOUT US. I PERSONAL WAS TOLD BY A PAST VA CHAIR PERSON AND TWO OF HIS PERSONAL AND A SECURITY THAT THE GOVERNMENT DON;T WANT THE VETS TO HAVE TRIER OWN INSURANTS BECAUSE IT WAS NOT GOOD FOR THEM THE VETS WELL THE WORDS THEY SPOKE WAS MORE OF A IF YOU KEEP TALKING I MIGHT LOSE MY BENIFITS WELL i GOT THE MESSAGE AND TALK EVEN MORE
Somehow, the VA has risen way above the law. How long will this agency protect itself against it’s sworn duty to help Veterans? How long? This is way out of control, and they need to start out here with the Austin VA clinic, then Temple, and Dallas etc. God bless America, this is way beyond reproach. The whole VA system here in Texas is filled with filthy thugs who are hiding out and hurting Vets. Nightmare on Elm Street ours should be called in Austin. I really feel for the family of the Veteran, and thank God that poor man is out of his misery. Those who shot him should be brought up on most severe of charges.
Another thing I’ve noticed is, there’s been other “local law enforcement agencies” involved in VA scandals throughout the years. AND, when that occurred, the VA employees WERE the ones found to be the guilty parties!
One such case was in Louisiana. When a “nurse” killed an elderly patient/veteran. And the city prosecutor tried the nurse.
Another one was that shrink called “The Candy Man” at “Candy Land” – remember that scandal?!
Or, how about those VA cops out in West Los Angeles VA arresting that vet numerous times for putt a small American Flag on the fence! A Federal judge found the vet innocent!
There’s more. Only I hope you get the idea!
It sounds like excessive force to me. Why was the man reprimanded after leaving? I suppose it was to ensure he was not a threat to himself or anyone else. I can understand that reasoning, but the 19 bullets, not so much.
On another note, this is the second posting regarding the VA Mental Health Care this year and it’s only 01/13/20. I must remind everyone that years ago when I first starting viewing this post, the VAMH was the source of my frustration. I wanted to be referred out to a Non-VA provider due to the lack of professionalism in this department. Could not get a referral even when I met the 120-day appointment requirement. Instead in order to get around the 120-day rule, you are referred to a VA case worker and do not get the benefit of a PHD Mental Health professional. Not that the doctors available at the VA are desirable, but it is your only option.
This is criminal and I should know about proper mental health care protocol since I am a mental health professional. As a result, horrible incidences like this occur when they could easily be avoided. So sad and just another problem that has been lingering in the VAHCS for way too long.
Singing the Blues
discharging that many rounds inside of a building to stop ONE person shows a total disregard for others safety. I mentioned many years ago that the term PTSD will bite all vets in the ass in years to come. Now anyone with PTSD and a pocket knife is a target for the rent a cop at the VA.
Exactly. To say nothing of this guy had a KNIFE. Not an AK-47. What would these jokers have done had he been armed with a rock? Only use 10 bullets?
Hell, unless BASIC/Boot camp has changed even more than we have been told, WE had a class in Basic that covered how to disarm someone with a knife without resorting to the use of a firearm…
I have a couple issues with the story and I was a former V/A Police officer myself.
First, I also wonder why non-lethal force was not applied. Either the department is inept or there is more to this story than is public.
Second, why are “local” police investigating this? They have NO power NO jurisdiction on federal property to start with.. And second, any situation like this is supposed to be handled by the U.S. DOJ because these are FEDERAL police officers, not local and because it happened on Federal property.. It works the same way as a military base. Local authorities have no jurisdiction unless request mutual aid onto a base.. and then investigative wise, it is ALWAYS federal authorities that are responsible for the investigation.
I have several of the same questions… Bringing in the local’s right away indicates that there is a total lack of confidence in that unit to conduct an internal investigation from someone high enough up the food chain that they probably should have acted before this.
Whether or not local PD have jurisdiction would depend on whether the property was concurrent, proprietorial, or exclusive. You are correct in that the feds would be needed if there was a prosecution.
As a former VA police officer you are poorly informed. The VA Police have never been allowed to carry tasers. You would know that. Jurisdiction- (I can’t believe I have to explain this to you) can be concurrent which means local police have authority on VA Property. This is something a former VA Police officer would know also.
Bringing in an outside agency to investigate means that they want an open investigation free from command influence. Normal is a local shooting investigation team or the FBI investigate VA Police shootings.
This is a terrible outcome on so many levels, and a prime example of how a misunderstanding can escalate to extremes in record time.
I do know that too often, veterans are turned away from Urgent care, or are kept waiting for ungodly hours at some facilities, and it is unacceptable to not have a physician on site, at all hours if there is a 24 hour Urgent care staffed otherwise. This is a very confusing issue for a patient to have to deal with in any emergent situation. Don’t forget, there are veterans that have been killed for relying on their facility under those circumstances.
Mr. Ashcraft goes to the Dallas VA in some distress to seek help. I don’t know if he is familiar with operating procedure at that facility but, since it is a large facility, it stands to reason that one might be able to expect a somewhat extensive level of care from them at any hour of any day, no holds barred. I would think that a competent ER staffer, would dispense aid (even if no more than calm conversation, or getting him into a gown), rather than react with fear toward the patient and bring on a tragic outcome. Is the Hippocratic Oath allowed to be exempted by all VA employed Medical Staff? Further, this all to common excuse by staff of “feeling” threatened by, or scared of veterans as patients is just plain lazy horse-pucky designed to get some sympathy. If it’s that intimidating of an issue, then they need to get out of OUR medical facilities and go work in a place better suited to their panty-waisted personality.
It would be quite human if in distress, to forget that one has on their person a knife or pistol, especially if there is no signage to remind visitors that weapons of any type are not allowed on any persons or in their vehicle while on federal property, except by authorized personnel. Period.
One statement Ben posted in the article says, “The 51-year-old sought psychiatric care from Dallas VA, but was in possession of a knife.” Nothing more.
To me, that singular statement sums up a whole lot of truthful explanation of the complete story.
While Mr. Ashcraft was inside the facility:
Was it simple possession? Not brandishing, wielding, slashing nor threatening with the knife, just plain old in possession.
What kind of knife was it?
Did ER staff actually see any part of the knife?
Was it in a scabbard or holster on his belt?
Ben, you asked, “Was excessive force used?”
On the surface and with so few details, I must say more likely, than not.
A good shot with rubber bullets would have brought him down for cuffing. Killing him with nearly 20 rounds was definitely cruel lethal force. As far as tasers… that is a weapon I have reservations about. If a person has an implanted life-saving device, or maybe epilepsy, I fear a tasering would kill them.
Even though the video reporter states that no Dallas PD officers were involved, that in itself could be a splitting of hairs. Many cities will use their auxiliary or reserve officers (and they technically are not police officers) for similar duties.
If, perchance, Mr. Ashcraft had never previously stepped foot into any VA medical facility, and this was his first encounter with VA staff because he needed to seek emotional medical care, well … fill in the blanks.
Striving; “the VA is always striving while fatally hitting the mark; us Veterans.”
President Donald Trump hired the a Secretary of Affairs Robert Wilke doing not doing nothing for improving Veterans Healthcare if someone please telled me..
I am not a police officer either but if I were the family of the deceased I would be running to an attorney and hollering excessive force. This reeks of a trigger happy cop who wanted to be the Big Man on the Block and shoot a guy when in actuality he could have tazed the person and the hospital could have sedated him and moved him to a secure room where he could have been treated.
The VA Police do not carry tasers.
Sent the article to the veterans committee. They may have a hearing but nothing will change . After advocating for change for 6 years this is what I learned. Nothing will change,VA a criminal organization,No accountability, VA pays problem employees hundreds of thousands to resign than rehires them, and more veterans will die. If you can get the hell out!
I’ll do something different:
I’ll wait for the investigation to conclude then I’ll make my decision
Have you ever noticed how many of the people who post here seem to be radicals or whack jobs? Keyboard cowboys to be sure. Let us wait until the investigation is completed before we start throwing around wild accusations and making useless threats. Take it down a notch or two before you start hollering “Get A Rope”.
Harry, the troll. Get a life. Like with your buddies and activist you too assume much while blowing smoke out your arse. Attacking or labeling those you don’t know a lick about? Seems to me YOU are one of many “keyboard cowboys” that don’t and won’t do much for others, or care much. Nor have experienced too much in life. Try MoveOn dot org, you’ll fit right in.
Go fly yourself.
So – no tasers?
I do believe everyone covered this correctly.
My main question is:
“How many police officers at the VA:
1.) Have or had been fired from previous law enforcement jobs, then hired by the VA?
2.) Have never worked in law enforcement?
3.) Have had training in a reputable law enforcement setting; ie: Law Enforcement University?
4.) Have been evaluated for any type of mental stability or instability in the law enforcement arena?
Your thoughts brothers and sisters!
Elf, if all those incompetent doctors and nurse get hired, I can promise you that bad police officers slip through the system. When I was hired on LAPD after 6 years in the military police I found out quickly that I didn’t know squat about being a police officer in the military. Everyone on LAPD goes through a 6 month background investigation, 4,000 questions on the psych evaluation and two extensive interviews with a department sh, 1 year probation training to weed out cops that cannot hack it and still we had bad cops. People are good at deceiving others to get a job. All VA cops should have to do 1 year of street training (probation) with a local Police Department for experience before working in a VA clinic or hospital.
As a current VA Police Officer at another facility;
1. None ( ok maybe one or two since no system is perfect and it does rely on the previous PD being honest as to why the officer left)- there is a long background check. The hiring process takes 6+ months.
2. Majority have previous LE, with many retired from a previous LE Position.
3. See 2 and there is an VA Police academy.
4. Part of the hiring process is a Psych exam with an annual exam after hiring.
Added note. VA Police do not carry tasers.
It has been said that you do not bring a knife to a gun fight. Neither do you bring a gun to a knife fight. ….Duh?!?!…..
My perspective is from being a retired Army veteran of 22 years active duty with one year in Vietnam, and as a subsequent VA retiree of 12 years. I believe ALL VA police should be required as a prerequisite for employment to attend and graduate from the AIT resident training course for military policemen. It is apparent that the current standard of entry level experience is “follow me and do what I tell you.” This does not cut it. This is probably how the junior officer in Iran shot down the airliner: no command or control, and no training.
I can attest to the crass incompetence of so many that are hired at this Dallas VAH. Their on campus nursing/recovery CLC is an ultimate abomination with a sadist doctor running everything having usurped the authority of the administrator there. A huge hospital that can’t do trauma surgery but can certainly amputate with glee. So they make sure thet wounds don’t heal with excessive debrieding so that amputation sells easily. Saw this over and over again and I was thrown out because of “non-compliance” since I wouldn’t let them amputate my foot. Get this: they can and do transgender surgery BUT NOT ORTHOPEDIC! I was attacked by a staff member who stepped on my injured foot in front of other staff that had to restrain him. Unreported. This isn’t even the tip of the iceberg regarding the abuses I saw while there. Reported to their police I was being sleep deprived and was told, “that wasn’t a felony.” The UN disagrees. I was then thrown into a closed ward. Punitive “medicine” is the order of the day. I can report much, much more. JCH
Nothing but a bunch of goose steppers
Poor training and experience for sure is causing them to act tough and reckless. After a 7 month Academy in LA it takes about 3 years to acquire the experience necessary to handle most situations. Sad that our veterans have to fear their own…
OMG! The VA Dallas police overkill on the veteran seeking psychiatric help! That was an overkill! My goodness! REALLY! There was no sense in that whatsoever! People wake up! Somebody please help our veterans! There was no need to kill him? They could have tased him? OVERKILL!!
A lot of Red Flags here. As a retired police officer knives can kill you just as quick as a gun. The problem I have is the man was leaving, possibly deescalating the situation. If they wanted to stop him then they should of deployed a taser. If he was not a treat to others in the parking lot, then they should have called the real police. If he turned and engaged multiple VA Cops, 17-19 rounds would not be unusual. Most suspects are not stopped until multiple hits. What pisses me off is more and more is Vets seeking mental help are shot and killed by VA Cops and civilian police. I have PTSD and will not go back to the VA for help because of the out of control VA Cops and Staff…
At this point, between the documented low standards of care, the continual stream of the VA’s police forces use of lethal means and the refusal of those in position do so to force the VA to fulfill/adhere to it’s mission, one would have to conclude that the actual VA/Government policy is to remove Veterans using the VA system and VA hospital services from the roles Americans eligible for medical treatment or services under the VA system…
They should know right off the bat whether or not he was a vet with an appointment or has a VA card. Gotta love that ‘news-speak’ or complete failures of breaking some allowed public news minus real information. Should be plenty of security videos/body cams on this too. Was this guy fifty feet away with a pocket knife while being or feeling threatened? With OCD cutting a bothersome thread from a shirt or jacket, whatever? Were body cams shut off? Edited as usual.
“Realignment,” “change,” “investigations,” excuses, things will remain the same, and worsen. That includes news reports of any LEOs having to go through more special training on how to spot or deal with mental health patients. Big joke, another big waste of tax dollars. We do live in and under a ‘police state.’ Slam people to the ground, felony take downs or stops, cuff until proven innocent. Cops called on upset patients leaving some facility, frequently happens. Patients today are seen as possible threats or domestic terrorist. We are all on lists by the way, still. Been told we are possible threats face to face with civilian health care workers, leave the VA systems of corruption more-so. As the civilian sector of care will happily carry on with VA or “professional” retaliation. “Professional Courtesy” don’t ya know. With the collective of some staff even turning their ID badges around, allowed to use nick names or first names only to protect themselves from “patients.” Don’t dare ask any of them or their LEOs for a closer look at their badges or IDs. Some need to wear their IDs, badges, somewhere besides on their tit area since some cover that region like we are scoping their breasts out or they cover up like being assaulted or something. Or have to hear remarks as “like what you’re staring at.” That goes for cops, security, enforcement clowns too. Didn’t know I had X-ray vision. Regardless seems hands go swiftly to their firearms over nothing at all. Even over simple parking disputes at a VA? As we pass by signs repeating “No weapons allowed on VA property.” That can mean anything they want to label as “weapons.” Ball bats or whatever may be in a vehicle, tire tools? An ink pen?
Point being we/I can go see if some hospital LEOs can help with abuse, threats, phone harassment, etc. What happens? Hands go to lethal weapons, no non-lethal types seen besides some spray or club. Back-up is called. I go to a local civilian hospital and ask the same while dealing with issues. Nope, same stuff and get reports like … “We can’t investigate our employers or take reports about staff.” “We’d like to keep our employment.” “We don’t want to cause termination of our company contracts with the hospital over this,” “I like my job,”etc. Hmmm, say what? But ready to shoot, getting cocky, and going on the defensive, on the ready for an attack and take-down? Call people “sir” or ma’am while apply pressure point or other pain creating maneuvers. But they are “trained” to watch our eyes and body language even us gimped up senior citizens, oh and with evil weapons like a cane they may be “staring” at. Got the cure for it all. Let’s all just create a society of being completely naked showing we have nothing to hide, no weapons, will that ease minds that are, can be, sicker than any of us? Nope, they need and seem to enjoy “good shoots.” Fulfill that need for excitement/drama/chaos/control. And will surely get video on their cell phones of some poor sucker out protesting with signs. What’s next being swatted or set-up over health care or complaints? Oh oh, are you for us or against us?
Pisses me off.
With all the VA police misconduct no one should have a gun at VA. Just because someone walking with a weapon doesn’t justifying taking someones life! It was defiantly excessive at a minimal. VA police have been caught falsifying reports so who knows what really happened. He should have been told to drop the weapon and tasered. VA doesn’t care about veterans!More hearing and nothing done! More veterans will die.
Here my question! What SSRI pills contributed to this mess?
One good question too.
One story locally from a vet who’s very young son was shot to death… fifty times, sitting in his car. Minus him having any weapons. Oh, “good shoots.” “Trained to empty clips/fire until suspect is down.” Regardless of how many LEOs are present, fire away, have fun. The insanity of it all never ceases, just increases regardless of situation or claimed causes or needs.
There will eventually a “MAFIA” FORMED BY vets to take care of those who do not treat vets properly. Just like in the old days when the corrupt gov’t officials in Sicily got out of hand.
Your right about the SSRI Any case like this or a vets Suicide we need to know if treatment was on going or had been stopped
From your article, it appears excessive force was used out of jurisdiction unless one of the officers has a body cam showing an attack launched with the knife. Otherwise the protocol should have been to follow until officers with jurisdiction and non lethal weapons arrived. Or the shots should have been directed at the legs unless the launched attack was in a near approach.
VA police gets too many bad apples from discharges of other police forces.
Well said, Lem:
I support cops 150% GOOD COPS, that is;
Cops like these should have their legs broken into a million pieces, so they will never hold any law enforcement position anywhere.
These cops are also veterans and know how to use their weapons and when not to use them. The administrator at this hospital should be fired immediately. Obviously the VA is employing people as police officers who should be in the mental ward, a bunch of “cowboys”.
Unless this veteran was charging the cops, he should not have been shot & and if it were necessay shoot in the legs.
Another lamentable act by the VA. When are they going to be taken to task??
As a lawyer & former Marine Officer I believe this STINKS.
There is such a CYNICAL attitude in the VA which does not lead to proper treatment.
Amen, shooting anyone is a last resort only.
Why don’t yo go to the family of the slain veteran, talk to them, perhaps represent them on a lawsuits. VA definitely needs to be completely over-hauled. I am a disabled veteran and personally, I do not want to go back to my VA. They turned away a veteran who had been trying to get benefits for several years, trying to get benefits. He went back to his car, in the parking garage, and shoot himself. If that is not bad enough, no one FOUND him, dead in his car, for 6 days. My VA was the facility that other patients in the emergency room made a video, that went viral because of waiting veterans, began laying on the floor, and were hollering in pain, no one came to their aide. Now, my VA has a policy of no videos within the facility. That is an admission, they not only have something to hide, but are actively banning videos, made on the premise, meaning they expect more incidents. Yeap, gonna say it, the Durham VA, in Durham, NC. Janelle Wolves, AE2, US Navy, honorably discharged, 1991-2002. And I owe this statement. not afraid to say it and post my name.
1) VA does NOT reserve positions on it’s police force for Veterans. VA cops are over paid vs “civilian” police forces rent-a-cowboy, err cops. Yes some ARE vets, but most don’t know we had a war in Viet Nam (seriously…) and/or think that they can personally take down any SEAL to have ever graduated BUDS (again, seriously. Try talking to some of those guys… At least they are paid in the 6 digits. Or at least the Marine who took a position with the Houston VA that I talked to about what a sane boy like him was doing in an insane position like that. BTW, that particular officer is not only actually qualified, forgot where they hired him away from, but is on the ball and has excellent situational awareness. And doesn’t think that he was an instructor at BUDS/Force Recon…
2)ALL a police officer has to do to pass their annual firearm qualification is earn a bolo badge. That’s right, they can pull a firearm and start blazing away in a crowded area with the ability to hit their target 7 times out of 10. And no need to worry about what happens with those other 3 bullets. What we had to prove to use a firearm in the middle of a war zone or the middle of nowhere, is ALL the competence they are expected to have to use firearms in a crowded/urban/peace time setting.
J Klapper, it’s amazing how little you actually know about what you’re talking about. You sound like someone that applied to the VA Police and was turned down for the job.
Lem, I agree with you. As far as shooting someone in the leg it is harder than you think and where are all those ricochets going that miss? Also suspects have been shot multiple times and are still be able to assault police officers. Perps on drugs feel no pain. That is why they can still shoot back after being shot repeatedly. We were taught two to the body and one to the head because most body shots do not kill on the first shot or two. 70% of officers miss hitting their suspect at less than ten feet because of jerking their pistol out of fear or poor training. Another thing, what do you do if the perp is wearing a bullet proof vest?
Good points Nick. However, I’ve seen cops do some fantastical shots out in the countryside with me or target shooting with the boys I’ve known. More recent gun clubbers or range folks out talking about cops shooting killing the perps while holding a hostage in front of them with mere inches showing to hit. Supposed to be coming up on some cop show or movie.
Ricochets, true enough. They’ve also made special powder loads and shells for less travel and hit-stop-damages as well. Like those for home defense, or claimed to be.
Solid facts about those on dope or pepper sprays not affecting them ether.
I always thought, or was led to believe, that they got special tactical skills so as not to jerk, over-come the Adrenalin rushes, shakes, etc. Guess not for all. Used to listen to radio programs discussing these issues and why the need for them and should be for all branches and types of LEOs to security guards, etc. Classes like that can be found all over the place now and at local firing ranges. I take it rent a cops or security cops with firearms here have to take FBI styled training to get their permits and to work.
I haven’t heard, yet, of anyone caught with vest wearing vets at the VA or causing problems just being patients.
In my bits of training, security work and being charged at was twenty feet with a weapon like knife, club, etc., cause that range can be closed quickly then we are the dead ones. About the range to see if some spray will affect them too. Didn’t have Tazers back then.
It’s still what they call “over-kill.” Some perps or murderers are labeled as using that but never for LEOs who in groups fire at the same time at people innocent or guilty of something.
If anyone has gone to gun shows or defense/police expos has seen the many forms of non-lethal alternatives. Hell, they got ‘sticky foam,’ projectile nets, Tazers, special shot, blinding sprays, special weapons used for large rubber projectiles that would put a huge monster down wearing a vest, etc. Then the stuff only active police can see in other special convention areas. That’s been years back. God only knows the stuff they have or can attain now days. Direct hand-held energy weaponry or something. Phazers like Star Trek.
Just too much of this stuff going on around the country and little news to hear of it all. Like with Indiana. No negatives or truth allowed.
Please don’t take this wrong and understand that there is probably more of the story that we are missing here.
1.) excessive force out of jurisdiction? The Jurisdiction of these officers doesn’t end at the door. Actually I’m the last 10 years their jurisdiction as expanded to be able to pursuit veterans or individuals off the actual VA hospital property.
2.) 16 or so shots! Having worked at a VA with a mental health ward, most of these veterans come into or are dropped off at the ER high on drugs! And if you know anything about folks on drugs, they have super human strength and keep going where others would not.
3) excessive force! Almost all departments are trained to shot and continue shooting until the threat is gone! 16 rounds between multiple officers is probably less than a second and a half.
3) and than the story could be completed different! What if they just continued to follow him or just let him go. Then he knives people along the way, than this story would be about the VA Police being undertrained and why did they allow this to happen!
First mistake: Going to the VA.
Second, and fatal: Being in Texas.
People who are not educated and who are not informed do indeed stereotype people on mental health anything. And this includes excessive force. The VA police should not have shot the veteran. Ben, if the veteran was truly somewhat not on track he would not have gone to the VA to ask for help. But on the other hand, from the way the VA seems to have lost its way since Obama was elected, the veteran was not on track because he went to the VA to ask for help. To shot a person using all those rounds due to a knife. Please give me a break. Also the VA employees may not been truthful about the vet’s behavior when he arrived to the emergency room or facility. Could be lying to protect themselves. A camera could reveal or non VA employee witnesses. I will say this this murder will start happening to many if a Democrat such as Bernie Sanders gets elected. He is a wolf wearing sheep skin clothing. He is a Marxist. Right in line with the former Cuban dictator Castro. Plus, Michael Bloomberg billionaire is buddies with China ruler. He has been helping China while Trump has been applying tariffs against China to establish fair trade to stop us from continually being cheated. My point is he a power and greed monger and is against the Constitution. So if any Democrat wins this country is gone. So is what is left of the rule of law. That means with what happened to this veteran could start happening routinely to many. Non veterans too. Country will turn into police state hell. Ben, I hope the DOJ investigates this situation. Because the VA police did not try other methods to deal with the veteran. Shooting anyone should be a last resort. As for these VA police individuals, they should be removed from this type employment. Lose their jobs… I am not sure…depends on what else they have been up to that has involved harming others.
Stereotype….Because people have mental health issues does not make them violent at all. Myth by people who are not informed. VA is a communist population control system in a 60 percent Socialist country. We only have about a 40% Capitalist country. We are not full forced Capitalist country. I am comparing back to the Reagan Administration. I was in my early to middle twenties during the 8 years of the Regean Administration. Honestly, very sad to me about this veteran. He did not deserve those bullets. He was not even given a chance. VA you are sad to me.
I say Communist population control system because of the limited due process, the patient flag system, the rationing of care, the leaving of veterans with upaid medical bills, and basically the denial of life itself.
When VA shoots without trying other means, this are Stallinist police tactics. Speaking about the 40% Capitalist, I am referring to how the govt has its hands in everything almost. Over reach and regulations. President Trump has been trying to get rid of many of the over the top regulations. Has helped economy but lots more needed. Healthcare is strangled by insurance companies and government. Just serving themselves. American citizens should just see about themselves as much as they can. The VA is not medical care. Band-Aids.
There’s no way to know at this point. But a knife vs 19 gun shots says a lot
The V.A. has NO BUSINESS dealing with Mental Illness
With how many in the VA conducts themselves is uncalled for.??? Saddening and embarrassing. I am referring to the constant finding of ways to throw the vets under the bus. I do not see how they live in their own skin. There are a few VA employees who try to care but like I have often mentioned they get sucked up in the government politics, power struggle, and the dollar bill. ???When power is involved and the dollar bill is involved, all bets are off for most involved. ???????????️??
Please don’t speak for me. I am a Veteran and am employee and while I don’t care for many people that work there, I see people work hard everyday. So while you spout out BS you know nothing about, and put cute pictures all over your post, it is all just your opinion.
That shooting was horrible. I knew him. So do me a favor and go back to waiting for Bernie to win so you can continue to get those free benefits that veterans and hard workers at the VA will pay for
While the VA is going to replace the cops because of a lack of professionalism they should replace the staff and the Doctors..
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