DEA Investigates Drug Diversion At VA Facility

DEA Drug Diversion

Benjamin KrauseVA released its previously withheld Tomah VA investigation report yesterday, which embarrassingly revealed the agency is under an active investigation by DEA into drug diversion and inappropriate prescribing of narcotics. The investigation has now taken on renewed vigor with the State of Wisconsin also investigating wrongdoing at Tomah VA alongside DEA.

Drug diversion is the illegal act of patients or doctors peddling prescription medications like opioids to third parties, and the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) does not look kindly on such practices. In fact, the practice is highly illegal. Still, drug diversion is believed to be at the center of the investigation into veteran deaths and linked to the harmful prescriptive practices utilized by Tomah VA health care providers.

DOWNLOAD: VA OIG Report on Tomah VA

The report basically concludes that no one was responsible for the outrageously high over-prescriptions occurring at Tomah VA, but that VISN 12 at Hines should look into it in case they conclude someone should be responsible. It goes on to point out that the adversarial environment at the facility should be addressed but stops short of clearly stating a specific person (or group of people) is creating adversity. Get it?

It is as if VA OIG is saying, “No one is at fault but if there were, then someone else will need to burn that bridge on their own at some future point no matter how many veterans die between now and then. No one is accountable so no one will need to fear reprisal later.”

Buried in a footnote on Page 5, the VA OIG Tomah VA report revealed:

“Additionally, during the course of their investigations of a few deceased veterans they had noted large quantities of prescribed controlled substances in their (the veterans’) residences. However, no law enforcement actions were being taken. Early in this inspection we became aware that DEA was actively investigating complaints of inappropriate prescribing and drug diversion at the Tomah VAMC.”

Isn’t it a little early to boldly conclude there are no law enforcement actions being taken, when there is an ongoing investigation by DEA? VA likely has no idea what kind of law enforcement action is in the works behind DEA’s iron curtain of secrecy.

The VA OIG report’s author diminished the scope of drug diversion by placing any blame at the foot of the veterans in its own response,“[The] Tomah police department reported suspicions that certain Tomah VAMC patients were misusing their prescribed controlled substances in various ways including drug diversion.” It then listed the above footnote that many readers would miss.

Do you get an impression that VA OIG is diminishing any blame its own employees should bear in light of the circumstances? Notice there is no mention of an ongoing DEA investigation into drug diversion related to inappropriate prescriptive practices within the main body of the text. OIG only mentions talking with DEA in one other place in the report.

But doesn’t that seem like an important element worth highlighting even more than what the local police are doing? Is this a form of manipulation aimed at protecting VA mental health care professionals at the expense of veterans caught in the same illegal scheme?



The report highlights a “Dr. Z” throughout the text as being a primary suspect accused of inappropriate prescriptive practices and employee abuse. This “Dr. Z” is commonly known to be Dr. David Houlihan. You can deduce that from reading the report or reading the comment from Dr. Houlihan’s attorney that was published yesterday.

Houlihan’s attorney, Frank Doherty, confirmed Houlihan’s identity in relation to the report within statements to reporter Daniel Bice boasting that Houlihan was cleared in this initial VA OIG investigation. ““Dr. Houlihan will fully cooperate with the investigation and will be cleared of any alleged wrongdoing, just as the VA cleared Dr. Houlihan of 32 mostly anonymous allegations after a two-year comprehensive investigation.” Comprehensive investigation, like in Phoenix VA?

Keep in mind, VA is now re-investigating the Tomah VA and Dr. Houlihan, who was removed from the facility and not allowed to treat veterans for the time being. It would be great if the rumors were allegations were false, but my contacts indicate such an outcome is unlikely pending forthcoming evidence from the new investigations by DEA and the State of Wisconsin. It will be interesting to see if OIG follows suit.

Attorney Doherty is a La Crosse, WI, attorney at Hale, Skemp, Hanson & Sleik and former JAG. Doherty has also leveled many threats to sue for defamation against reporters (Aaron Glantz, Donovan Slack, etc) on behalf of Houlihan, against the Tomah VA whistleblower, Ryan Honl and even me for what I wrote on this website citing Glantz’s investigation. The lawsuit threats appear to be little more than SLAPP suit threats intended to silence free speech aimed at holding government officials accountable. SLAPP is short for “strategic lawsuits against public participation.”

Most states including my home state of Minnesota have laws against SLAPP suits. Unfortunately for those domiciled in Wisconsin, that state does not protect free speech in the same manner as elsewhere.

<< Send the Hale Skemp law firm your thoughts on SLAPP suits: Contact Frank Doherty. >>

For a little backstory, Houlihan’s attorney is trying to make these claims (Houlihan is innocent and everyone else is lying) in part due to the obscenely high standard VA OIG uses when investigating employees. This standard of guilt virtually forecloses any reasonable chance of justice when a VA employee is accused of mistreating a veteran. Attorney Doherty is able to claim Houlihan was cleared because there existed no “conclusive evidence” that Houlihan’s prescriptive practices resulted in known drug diversion or the death of any veterans.

In investigations like these, VA OIG makes use of the “conclusive evidence” standard in its conclusion of guilt, which is a difficult standard to meet when investigating anonymous allegations. The term “Conclusive Evidence” means, “That which cannot be contradicted by any other evidence; for example, a record, unless impeached for fraud, is conclusive evidence between parties.”

Since such a standard would allow wrongdoers to roam free, it is not used in many instances within our nation’s courts including criminal law.

In this case, do you think any doctor would be foolish enough to write in a record, “Diverted drugs from my patient to John Doe today.”?

Now, does the lack of “conclusive evidence” mean Dr. Houlihan is innocent? Absolutely not. Likewise, it obviously does not mean he is guilty, either.

It only means VA OIG did not catch Houlihan with any evidence like that of watching a bank robber with no mask rob a bank on video. According to VA OIG, Houlihan did not write that he diverted drugs or knew of such diversion in anyone’s medical record or in an email. This means that, if nothing else, we can conclude Houlihan may be a lot of things but a fool is not one of them.

Will DEA reach the same conclusion as VA OIG? I think it is unlikely DEA will whitewash this investigation, while it does appear VA OIG did whitewash its investigation in the same way it whitewashed Phoenix VA right down to its use of “conclusive evidence.”

Luckily, the State of Wisconsin only uses the “preponderance of the evidence” standard when trying a doctor for licensure infractions. This is synonymous with saying “more likely than not,” which improves the probability that whoever is guilty of drug diversion or having knowledge of it will be held accountable.

In this instance, Wisconsin has the authority to revoke the license of Dr. Houlihan and any other licensed health care provider who is licensed by the state.

Perhaps VA OIG should take notes from Wisconsin? Or, maybe Congress should cut off VA OIG’s metaphoric silver tongue so that the watchdog actually does its job?

This kind of rhetorical ploy used by VA OIG and implicitly touted by Houlihan’s attorney was similar to that of Phoenix VA head Sharon Helman. Maybe it is no coincidence that Helman spent a little time at VISN-12, to which Tomah VA belongs, before landing her queenship at Phoenix VA prior to the well-known wait list scandal that left numerous veterans dead in Arizona. Maybe unorthodox and sometimes harmful treatment of veterans in Phoenix was like a metathesized cultural cancer that started outside Chicago and grew across the country.

In Phoenix, VA OIG also concluded there existed no “conclusive evidence” that the wait list caused the deaths. Of course, unless the person dies from paper cuts, obviously a wait list will not cause the death. Instead, the death is caused by the disease or injury, but waiting for health care may have instead contributed to an untimely death. Yet, VA OIG did not miss the opportunity to evade agency accountability by going after the sound byte that there was no conclusive evidence.

Ready for a little justice? Send a note if you are aware of drug diversion by any Tomah VA health care workers.


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  1. The Roseburg Oregon VA Healthcare system phone number is (541) 440-1000. Call them and ask for the FAX number to the ROI officer, currently Richard Weber.

    Submit a FOIA request for the following Uniform Official Report (UOR); 2013-01-28-1210-0483

    I am in posession of that report because one of the redacted names in it will be mine. I am the patient who reported being dispensed prescription medications to VHA police after being red flagged and having the “official” lines of supply for my psychiatric drugs terminated. They dispensed my drugs, not of the right dosage, on the corner of 7th and Pearl St. in Eugene Oregon. The Suicide Prevention Coordinator at the time, Carol Padget, LCSW, Invited me down to the clinic after hours to receive them which I did.

    It is a 13 page report and documents the investigation which included a search of the Eugene VA Mental Health Clinic. The search turned up 3 type written pages of prescription drugs, at least one CSA drug, and also netted a VA secure prescription drug tablet from a doctors purse. A psychiatrist had a secure prescription tablet in her purse. They use those to prescribe morphine and opiods.

    Officer Elijah Pannier of the VHA Police at the time and author of the UOR called me at home just prior to resigning. I asked him about the report and what would happen now. He said, “…for all I know the Chief Of Staff (who gets the report) is using it for wallpaper.” Then he resigned.

    I did take a copy of the UOR to the Oregon State Police since the crime of dispensing on the street to me happened off of their campus. The detective said they had never encountered a crime of this magnitude before and would have to refer it to the Oregon Attorney General for guidance. They said the investigations like this take a very long time.

    In the report you will see they obtained a written confession from Carol, who immediately told them, “I wasn’t in this alone…”

    I felt crappy that I reported a person who had handed me pills to keep me alive, but when I called Washington DC and told them what had happened and how I felt this represented a complete breakdown of medical care, the VA agent on the phone said, “I hope you are used to wearing handcuffs, because by accepting those drugs you committed a felony crime.”

    yep, they really did say that. I hung up on that guy in DC. And now, for those who want the scoop on drug diversion, conspiracy to commit drug offenses, distribution, tampering with evidence, Controlled Substance Act violations, Oregon State law felony violations off VHA campus, and a litany of documented then confessed to lies by VHA employees.

    It isn’t just one part of a Dynasty that falls apart when the collapse comes, the entire VHA Dynasty is in such disarray that it no longer functions as a health care entity. Get the UOR. I can fill in every single redacted name if you care for it. I am not afraid of these people anymore.

  2. ……meanwhile…… as the DEA continues to Bully senior level doctors threatening them and their staff with revoking their license to practice medicine if they continue prescribing opioid’s……

    …. and all of this to drive the patient in pain to the street level to buy pills and/or heroin……

    …and as you hand your dollars over to the street little known is the fact that you are now funding the cartels, terrorists, and ISIS’s……

    P-E-R-P-E-T-U-A-T-I-O-N O-F W-A-R
    (It is the ONLY form of income for the USA – WAR!)

    ….. and the full, total and outright self perpetuation of war goes on,……

    ……and on…..

    ….and on…..

    ya, it’s only a matter of time now before something really big just GOES, “SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP”!

    I for one, am no longer proud of the nation I once fought for, and in fact cannot wait until the current national model dies. This is the only way we will ever get things right, she must die and be reborn folks. There, I said it. America, as we know it, must die.


  3. This a typical knee-jerk response to any issues related to responsible medical care. There were unintentional overdoses resulting in fatalities but that does not equal suicide in and of itself. Reliance on opiates for pain management does not equal addiction either. So the bureaucracy responds by taking away needed relief from everyone.

    1. I have known Vets, a handful of Vets, who have committed suicide. Most on heroin. A couple really messy. We know methadone and alprazolam together are deadly. I am dependant on hydrocodone, and alprazolam. Been dependant for a decade. The affects of the dysfunctional way the Chiefs are handling this issue is costing me a bit of peace of mind, and how I physically live. At my Dr. Visits, my psychiatrist doesn’t talk to me, and I haven’t seen a Dr. In over a year. Medications are late, and I have no course of action. Since 1975, one thing I have learned., VA hospitals are all about politics. Just a proper diagnosis may take….forever.

  4. When are we going to see an educated fix to medicating veterans in chronic pain? Isn’t that, after all, the crux of all these issues? Instead of dousing themselves in a circular squalor of finger-pointing, use the time constructively.

    Here’s an example of a fix: starting with the top tier medically documented chronic pain patients, use dispensing practices via a med-o-wheel. It is a tamper resistant programmed controlled medication dispenser. Have the dispensers filled at the pharmacy level but physically dispensed by a controlled prescription management provider. Whether at the VA MC level, CBOC, or contracted through a VNA. Use a rotation of the med-o-wheel, conduct unannounced on-site home visits to ensure compliance and offer UA, and document continued need.

    Since trust is such a basic reason to pull meds from veterans, implement this program and when the veteran shows continued compliance, focus on the ones who are non-compliant. Pull the meds on the non-compliant ones after putting them in a detox program.

    It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out alternative solutions to medication management. Congress approves large operating budgets for VAMCs, yet few dollars trickle down to the programs people complain the most of. Do something proactive for the veterans instead of leaving them hanging to a thread of diminishing hope.

  5. It sure sounds like the VA is projecting that it’s THE VETERAN that’s at fault for having pain in first place and since there were pain meds in cabinet of the now dead Veterans, then they *must* be the root of the problem! What THE HELL!??? If that isn’t bad enough, in the civilian arena the same thing is happening. My civilian Gastro Spec. was forced by the State to make all his patients sign a medication contract because of all the rampant crack/meth/heroine use but guess what? They will not drug test nor make those on Obama-Care via State Medicaid sign same contract! My Dr. is not FOR such contracts and resisted as long as he could. In every facet of this, the REAL problem is NEVER being addressed and what’s that? The DAMN DR’s whom are mismanaging their patients or States like Florida that seem to be the Pill Mill Factories where this is not addressed by the DEA and Congress.
    Now this with the VA, now cutting back or ceasing pain meds cold turkey on Vets that actually need them…if there was a soundtrack for the Veteran Affairs in a Public Deception Announcement it should be the sounds of many toilets flushing, then getting clogged-up, coughing-up, and spilling all over.
    Just when you thought their might be a glimmer of hope of that “Change you can believe in”, more toilet flushing.
    The VA’s pain management will next be to drop a bowling ball on any part of your body that does NOT hurt, and say, “See, now you no longer hurt as bad over there, right?!”
    Circus music and toilets flushing…our VA. So Sad! Pathetic President should not let the door hit him in the ass when he leaves and 2016 could not come fast enough.

  6. Why was a Psychiatrist prescribing pain meds in the first place?
    We need to demand our healthcare coverage from outside VA. Give us our own policy with BC/BS, etc. just like the Congressmen. The insurance co. are now bedfellows with Goverment anyway. We could then go to whoever we chose. A voucher system depending on the percentage of disability. Just think of the goverment savings from real estate to man power and supplies/equipement.
    The VA system is broken. Really, why are we segregated in the first place?

  7. I,m getting the same thing been of pain meds over 20 years. This is after three years of pain mmanagement. NOW I m getting. My meds cut and have to see a nut doctor. Nevr abused they m done everything the va has asked. Now it,s all in my head even after a morphine pump was implanted and botched

  8. Okay, now that I read this article, I’m insulted. I actually still have my empty bottles from the last year where I took every single pain pill because I NEED them. I cannot function without pain management in the form of narcotic medication. Not because I’m an addict but because my body is damaged beyond repair. While there are unscrupulous patients everywhere, I am not one of them. Now the accusations are being thrown out there we were prescribed too many pills so therefore we must be selling them. While the claim represents the odius resemblance of the Salem Witch Trials and the McCarthy Communist accusations, the ludicrous claims veterans such as myself are transferring pills to third parties is unbelievable. I now suffer in extreme pain cut off cold turkey. My spouse has never seen me trying to function without pain management and can’t understand why I hurt so badly now. It’s a good representation why the general public, Honl, the investigators, and others don’t comprehend chronic pain. They don’t feel the pain so it must not be as bad as we say it is and a slew of other accusations surface. I for one want to turn my back on my country but it wouldn’t make a difference as long as they get me off their controlled med list.

    1. The opioid prescription issue posed huge problems across the country, not just at Tomah VA. My concern for veterans who need the drugs for pain is that VA will backlash against veterans and put a huge roadblock in front of patients who actually need the drug. This seems to be going on across the country now, where as of last February, VA started cutting prescriptions without any explanation. Veterans upset about the action are then labeled “Drug Seeker” and then given a patient flag.

      1. You are correct about being flagged. I’m flat out ignored by hospital staff and even by the patient advocate. I equate this to torture because my quality of life is near zero. It takes everything i have just to do the smallest of tasks due the pain being so high. The best was when I received a recent call and was reminded the pain might be in my head even though the VA detailed testing revealed severe bone issues. In their report of my body Tomah wrote of the vast severity of my issues. They know my pain exists yet because of the whistle blowing, refuse to address my pain to cover their own ass.

      2. I am one of those who need the chronic pain meds and I too cannot function without them. I also am not a seeker, abuser, addict, or anything like that. I am an ordinary person who knows how many of my fellow vets feel dealing with chronic pain. I had my medicine taken away from me when I moved from WA to IN and I finally got a replacement for what I was taking (a lower type of narcotic) and I don’t feel that this is about all vets being addicts or anything like that. I believe this is about a few that are being prescribed too many pain meds. The result is the bad part as many of us have found out. We who need these meds are the ones that are paying for a few who have had a problem either on their own or as a result of the VA. Should the rest of us pay for a few? No, but are we going to? Yes, this will end up hurting those of us who need these to be able to function in society. I don’t want my meds taken away again; however, I know that it can happen again and that would really be bad for those of us who do need them. What will we do when this happens? I have no idea. I can’t imagine having to go back to what I just came from. It sucked and I never want that again. I know that someday it will most likely happen as the VA never does the right thing to actually help the vet and they only do what helps them.

      3. I agree that those with pain will suffer unless one has a doctor with the intelligence to properly document why the pain med is needed. I had knee replacement surgery last year, and the doc wanted to cut off pain meds within a month even though I had complications and still doing PT. Luckily it wasn’t a battle to get it renewed once to get me through the worst of it. I still have lots of pain and need surgery again, but I refuse to ask for pain meds.
        The others that will suffer are all those cut off cold Turkey, whether they need the meds due to pain or not. If they are addicted, they will be out in the cold without treatment for that addiction.
        Finally, many of the problems with the VA could be solved with hard nosed oversight by the House and Senate VA committees. Instead, we see grandstanding quick fixes that never resolve any problems because nobody wants to conduct hard oversight like Gowdy investigating Benghazi.

  9. I found this and it is the letter to Tammy Baldwin from a Dr. who wants his colleague to remain anonymous. It is the beginning of the OIG report. It is dated 7 April 2014. I am not sure if this has been put on here; however, I will put it on here again if so and from this letter it seems pretty clear that there is a concern of a problem at the Tomah VA. Read it and see what you think. It is a PDF and you will have to download it to see it. Sorry for the long URL but it is from google and I have not tried to find it somewhere else

    I know that there seems to be an August date mentioned and this would show that it has gone back even further than that.

    1. Excellent reading and thank you for the link. I saw a lot of statistics. Interesting there were 10 percent who received pain meds who came up negative for them in the UA. A few plausible reasons could be they only took the pain pills when needed or hadn’t taken them in a few days to prevent driving to their medical appointment under the influence. I have had to do the latter or find a driver to get me to the appointment if I was actively taking them. Another possibility is they abused their prescription and ran out too fast. One knows the abuse factor lies with the person holding the bottle. In 2009 Jeff Wood, a state representative and disabled veteran, was pulled over after leaving the Tomah VA and gobbled down a bunch of pills. Even a lawmaker abusing proves it’s not necessarily just any disabled veteran out there with medication management issues. But if you have a veteran with medically proven pain, you will find those are the ones who come up right on the UA, don’t call saying they lost their pills, and wouldn’t think of diversion. Unfortunately, those are the very veterans who are being ignored with their pleas to keep their prescription.

      1. Patient, I thought so myself. This also has the start of the paperwork (or close to it) and shows what the concerns were and how the paper trail went. It does seem that this was started and nothing was done for some time. I still find it hard to believe that the VA OIG could not find anything (no I’m not, it’s the VA after all).
        I am hopeful that the VA will not force us that need the meds and are not abusing them to stop us from getting them as some of us have such limited options and the meds are the only hope for us. As I said, there are some that are not doing what they should and as a result the rest of us will suffer because of a few. It is not right and the VA need to know that most of us are the responsible patients and are doing what we are instructed to do.

  10. All federal agencies are in bed together and wouldn’t dare incriminate each other or admit to one another’s wrong doing!!!

    1. Exactly! No one to challenge the one at the top of the food chain!
      The Drs. gave Oxy out like candy without even stepping up milder medication to see if it would be effective before a heavy duty drug like oxy was used. This drug was intended primarily for end of life cancer pain meds, pain uncontrolled and not for typical pain. Was this type of drug needed, yes but they knew how highly addictiive it was. I lost a family member to that horrible drug and watch as herion takes over for its $ and lack of supply now.
      The people who truly need it are now to suffer?!
      Meanwhile it has made the pharmacutical co. and some bad Drs. very rich over the past decade.

  11. And the easiest cop out of all in being denied pain management now, “you were seeing a shrink so your pain must be all in your head. “

  12. You know something ,they are going to work themselves right out of a job ,I have been following this story for a long time,I had a Dr in 2013 that told exactly what was coming ,I actually had 5 roll in and out in around 3 years but at least he was honest .i have been on my pain Meds for 14 years never abused or tried to call them in early,never abused my Drs trust ,You do everything like they tell you & where does it get you? I have no answers how I am to manage the pain .The only thing I can think of is to start Drinking Again.I have lost any trust in the VA & it’s only going to get worse .I do thank you Ben for this site & the input from my fellow Veterans,.There have been some people on here that have gave great advice .i have read stories that scare the shit out of me .But I do not see any good fixes coming from the VA anytime soon ,if at all

  13. I read the IG report. Here is a synopsis. Someone complained anonymously, we investigated, we could not substantiate the claims.

    Should you read the IG reports, where they are investigating an anonymous IG complaint, you will almost never hear that any of the allegations were substantiated and if by some quirk of fate, one or two incidences where they found grounds for the complaint, they would white wash the whole thing with; we suggested corrective action and the Director agreed. (I am paraphrasing).

    No one ever is disciplined, no one is ever exposed and no one is ever fired. My dad always said where there is smoke their is fire. Do all these employees and vets just make these allegations up? We all know the answer to that is no.

    If the VA was a private business, it would probably be prosecuted under the RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations) Act. It was and is a criminal conspiracy to keep whitewashing what happens in all theses so-called investigations.

  14. Unfortunately the veteran who needs pain management and narcotics for health issues will be the ones fucked over this so called do gooder act of idiotic denial of pain management. I do not believe the VA gives out narcotics like candy because I have to beg my provider and he does everything he can to deny help.

  15. I am sure that the VA OIG and the DEA will not find anything “conclusive” and therefore will not pin this on anyone that works at this VAMC. It is a two sided problem and I am on one part of that problem. I have a chronic pain problem and right now the only way to treat this is by the use of a narcotic pain med. So I can see both sides of this. I do not think that this is helping those of us who have exhausted all of our options for pain relief. This has also led to PCP’s who are now very reluctant to prescribe what has worked for those in which the options are limited. So I can see that if a Dr. was not doing what he/she was supposed to do could cause trouble for that Dr. and the VA is which the Dr. is practicing; however, those of us who need this type of treatment should be allowed to receive it without having to now deal with the VA and its’ “we are now changing the opioid prescription rules and therefore are changing the way many of you now get your pain medicines and you may not get what you have been getting in the past” type of treatment. Just because some problems may have developed with some should not harm the rest of us.
    I do hope that if something is found that the correct punishment is handed out and that the VA will get better. I still don’t see that happening soon. Reading that this investigation has taken two yrs. and they are still looking into it raises a question to me about if any vet has died during this “investigation” should anyone who is doing the investigating be held accountable for the death? Why is it taking that long to investigate this. If a Dr. is doing this it should not take very long to put something together. Most of the VA’s seem to have a high patient load so there should be evidence of this going on and one would think that it would not take this long to find something.
    I will also say the I have had to attend an “opioid safety class” because of taking the narcotic pain med. This class was nothing more than another attempt of the VA to “brainwash” us vets into believing that pain meds (narcotics) are not the answer for long term treatment. If was funny to have the Dr. who gave this try to push her agenda of having no one on the pain meds even though the DVD she played said a different thing and it also had a pain video that was from Australia. She tried to say that there are many non-narcotics that work as good or better than narcotics. I could go on. It was an hour I will never get back. What a joke.

    1. Do you know what the title of the video, from Australia on pain is? Ben could you put the video on here, so we can see what this is about?


      1. Dennis, here is the link to the video. It is on YouTube and hopefully the video will work on here as a link. It was part of a bigger video that I am not sure if it is on the internet as it is a VA video and was made by the VA from a VA Dr. for the VA on how to deal with chronic pain and it was more contradictory to what the Dr. was saying when she was trying to tell us that we should get off of the narcotic meds and try another type of treatment. She was also telling us to try other treatments that the VA would not pay for. I found the whole thing was such a waste of time. a couple of vets asked her questions about their specific pain problems which had limited options and she was trying to come up with something that made sense to back-up what she repeatedly told us that narcotic pain meds were not the answer to relieve pain.

        You may have to copy and paste it to YouTube to see it. The title to this video is:

        Understanding Pain: What to do about it in less than five minutes?

        I will look for the other video an see if I can find it.

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