Veterans Crisis Line Audit

A new audit shows the Veterans Crisis Line failed to implement action plans from a February 2016 IG audit and does not collect post-call suicide data to know if it is working.

A new audit by VA OIG found VA failed to fully staff and repair deficits resulting in at least 1/3 of all calls rolling over to ill-equipped backup call centers. Further, the call centers do not collect post-call data on whether veterans still attempt or complete suicide. And making matters worse, VHA has ignored recommendations it agreed to implement from February 2016 after more than one year.

RELATED: Why Did Veteran’s Call To Veterans Crisis Line Get Routed To India?

According to the IG report:

VCL leaders defined the success of the call center partly in terms of suicide reduction. However, the VCL had no process in place for routinely obtaining or reviewing data on serious outcomes, such as attempted or completed suicides by veterans who made contact with the VCL prior to the event. By not reviewing serious adverse outcomes, VCL QM managers missed opportunities for quality improvement.

How can they measure success without knowing if veterans are being positively impacted or still completing suicide after calling?

Previously, Secretary Bob McDonald promised to fix the Veterans Crisis Line (VCL) deficiencies by September, Suicide Awareness Month. The IG report shows he failed to meet that promise.

RELATED: Veterans’ Calls To Suicide Call Center Abandoned

How can we keep pumping money into programs that lack the basic metrics necessary to know if the endeavor is even working?

Veterans Crisis Line Deficiencies

According to the IG report, present deficiencies include:

  • VCL failed to collect data regarding attempted or completed suicides following contact with VCL
  • VCL staff and supervisors failed to respond adequately to veterans’ urgent needs resulting in missed opportunities to help.
  • Mandatory documentation of calls was insufficient to allow retrospective assessment of services provided by the responder to the caller.
  • Clinical decision makers were largely excluded from decisions made by VCL governance resulting in a failure to appropriately consider clinical perspectives.
  • No permanent director has been appointed to oversee the program.
  • VCL still lacked enough staff to answer calls resulting in calls rolling over to backup call centers contracted by an external vendor who were not properly trained.

RELATED: Suicidal Veterans’ Calls Blocked At Call Center

Veterans Crisis Line Ignored Recommendations

In addition, let’s not forget the recommendations IG made in February 2016 that VHA agreed to but failed to implement. These were:

Recommendation 1.

We recommended that the OMHO (now VHA Member Services) Executive Director ensure that issues regarding response hold times when callers are routed to backup crisis centers are addressed and that data is collected, analyzed, tracked, and trended on an ongoing basis to identify system issues. 

Appropriate VHA leaders did not demonstrate the use of the Link2Health data to improve performance. Although we found evidence that VCL staff reviewed

Link2Health data, we did not find that they used the data systematically to provide feedback to backup centers regarding performance parameters such as queue times, abandonment rate, and call answer rate. At the time of this report, VHA had not completed the necessary actions to close this recommendation.

Recommendation 2.

We recommended that the Member Services Executive Director ensure that orientation and ongoing training for all VCL staff is completed and documented.

We found that VHA did not ensure that orientation and ongoing training for all VCL staff was completed and documented. At the time of this report, VHA had not completed the necessary actions to close this recommendation.

Recommendation 3.

We recommended that the Member Services Executive Director ensure that silent monitoring frequency meets the VCL and American Association of Suicidology requirements and that compliance is monitored.

We found that VHA had not yet ensured that the VCL establish a requirement for silent monitoring frequency of VCL calls and therefore could not have monitored compliance with such a requirement. VHA requested an extension until March 2017, and this recommendation remains open.

Recommendation 4.

We recommended that the Member Services Executive Director establish a formal quality assurance process, as required by VHA, to identify system issues by collecting, analyzing, tracking, and trending data from the VCL routing system and backup centers, and that subsequent actions are implemented and tracked to resolution.

The VCL lacked key components of a formal quality assurance process necessary to comply with VHA requirements. Specifically, the VCL had not designated individuals with appropriate background and skills to provide leadership to promote quality and safety of care. VCL policies did not incorporate relevant existing VHA directives outlining the key elements of a successful QM program. The VCL also lacked a committee that regularly reviewed data, information, or risk intelligence, and that ensured that key quality, safety, and value functions were discussed and integrated into VCL processes. VHA requested a deadline extension of March 2017 to implement this recommendation.

Recommendation 5.

We recommended that the Member Services Executive Director consider the development of a VHA directive or handbook for the VCL.

VHA concurred in the original response to this recommendation and stated it would establish a VHA directive for the VCL. We found that while VHA had made significant progress, it had not completed a VHA directive for operating the VCL (such as outlining the VCL purpose, roles and responsibilities). VHA requested a deadline extension of March 2017 to complete the VHA directive for the VCL.

Recommendation 6.

We recommended that the Member Services Executive Director ensure that contractual arrangements concerning the VCL include specific language regarding training compliance, supervision, comprehensiveness of information provided in contact and disposition emails, and quality assurance tasks.

We found that while VHA established a new contract in April 2016 with a goal of improved quality assurance monitoring, VHA did not ensure compliance with the quality assurance surveillance plan for VCL backup center performance. VHA planned to extend the current contract for 6 months and requested an extension for implementation of this recommendation until September 2017.

Recommendation 7.

We recommended that the Member Services Executive Director consider the development of algorithms or progressive situation-specific stepwise processes to provide guidance in the rescue process.

VHA stated that they were developing standard work processes for all caller types including SSA responsibilities during emergency dispatch. We found that VCL managers developed standard situation-specific progressive stepwise processes to provide guidance in the rescue processes. However, VHA needs to demonstrate the training and competence of SSAs on the current protocol to achieve closure. VHA requested a deadline extension of March 2017 to implement this recommendation.

Which of any of these points concern you the most and why?

Source: https://www.va.gov/oig/pubs/VAOIG-16-03985-181.pdf

281 COMMENTS

  1. 03/24/2017

    Dear Benjamin Krause,

    The VA has pulled this stunt over and over at the call center and defrauding the American Taxpayer—all the while pissing off Veterans and their families—many are killing themselves at the rate of 22 a day —if not more than 30 a day [Who is doing the counting?].

    What is the definition of insanity?
    Google:
    in·san·i·ty
    inˈsanədē/
    noun
    the state of being seriously mentally ill; madness.
    “he suffered from bouts of insanity”
    synonyms: mental illness, madness, dementia; More
    extreme foolishness or irrationality.
    plural noun: insanities
    “it might be pure insanity to take this loan”
    synonyms: folly, foolishness, madness, idiocy, stupidity, lunacy, silliness; informalcraziness
    “it would be insanity to take this loan”
    ____________________________________
    Following these people would be doing exactly that.
    ______________________________________
    “Since the question of sanity or insanity is a legal question and not a medical one, the judge and or jury will make the final decision regarding the defendant’s status regarding an insanity defense.[12][13]
    In most jurisdictions within the United States, if the insanity plea is accepted, the defendant is committed to a psychiatric institution for at least 60 days for further evaluation, and then reevaluated at least yearly after that.
    Insanity is generally no defense in a civil lawsuit. However, in civil cases, the insanity of the plaintiff can toll the statute of limitations for filing a suit until the plaintiff has recovered from this condition, or until a statute of repose has run.”–Wikipedia

    So do we stick these guys in the institution for 60 days—maybe they might never get out.

    Sincerely,

    Don Karg

    • @Don Karg- Real world definition of insanity and approved by Albert Einstein: “Doing something repeatedly and expecting a different outcome every time”….(e.g. Slamming one’s head against a rough wall repeatedly, expecting it to not hurt the next time. or Dealing with indifferent incompetent asses at the VA and expecting some real medicine with compassion and empathy. or Expecting each and every day for the VA to do the right thing. or Expecting the VA to even follow recommendations from an VAOIG report, but the VA sure is DAMN PROUD they redefined the Veteran Suicide Rate from 22 to 20 a day.

      Who’s actually keeping track and count? Maybe 20 Veteran Suicides a Day is the understatement of the century?
      ^All of the above…is…insanity when speaking of the VA.

  2. “[Which of any of these points concern you the most and why?]”

    All -7- are equally egregious to my mind but…

    “[Recommendation 3.

    We recommended that the Member Services Executive Director ensure that silent monitoring frequency meets the VCL and American Association of Suicidology requirements and that compliance is monitored.

    We found that VHA had not yet ensured that the VCL establish a requirement for silent monitoring frequency of VCL calls and therefore could not have monitored compliance with such a requirement. VHA requested an extension until March 2017, and this recommendation remains open.]”

    ^#3 stands-out in particular in that the VA could not even be bothered to ensure the security (“silent monitoring” as the VA calls it?) of the suicide crisis lines….so I am kind of going out on a limb here and thinking the you can still hear the VA hack chewing their gum like a cow while they are “monitoring” the phone crisis lines”?
    What exactly does the VA mean by “silent monitoring”? I can only think that the VA would mean more on a spying/clandestine listening-in on the line…not so much the SECURITY of such a line.

    ALL -7- are equally egregious but that “silent monitoring” made the hair on my back stand-up this morning. Also, is it too hard for the VA OIG to ORDER the VA to make changes rather than only “recommend” or “consider”? Lastly, is it also too much for the VA OIG to refer to the VA Sec. as such rather than “Executive Director”? Makes these all read like a corporation board meeting rather than any medical environment with an ounce of empathy or compassion.

    RAND Corp. concurs that suicide can be a bad thing for the VA’s image but since the VA is rather disheveled, we at RAND agree, the VA rats do not give a rats ass unless bonuses are involved.

    WHY WERE THESE HACKS ALLOWED TO HAVE PERFORMANCE BONUSES WHEN THEY COMPLETELY *FAIL* AT *ANY* RECOMMENDATION??????
    NPB–Non-Performance Bonuses.

    • Okay, let me mention another thing that raises the hair on my back and fills me with the urge to defecate this morning:

      Although I fully recognize the word “Veteran” is completely within the “Veteran Crisis Line, (VCL)” all throughout those -7- entirely missed points and opportunities for the VA to do the right thing for VETERANS and Suicide Prevention, but even the lack of using the term “VETERANS” in their damn reports, reducing it to yet another anagram within (VCL), where “VETERANS” are getting LOST…JUST LIKE THE WAY THEY TALK ABOUT US…reduced to a more pleasant on the eye abbreviation…same with “VETERAN SUICIDE”….call it ugly and what it is…and by their very indifference they further expose their unwillingness to do the most basic things to MEET THEIR OWN GOALS….and STILL get freaking bonuses…they do not care.

      Until, and only until the VA is hit HARD where the VA only knows it hurts THEM, their paychecks and bonuses, NO CHANGES will happen and if any squeak through, they are at glacial speed and done at the most minimal level…and yet another scolding!!

      Rant Out! (I think…this just pisses me off to no end)

      • In all of those 84 pages in the pdf OIG report, the term “Veteran” is sidestepped throughout…and although the VA goes to great length to define and redefine what suicide IS and how it affects us “globally”, the VA cannot bring themselves to call it the ugly truthful name of “Veteran Suicides Caused or Instigated by VA”. –ADD THAT to the glossary of “initials” in that damn report.

        Notice in all of that list of initials used by VAOIG, “Veteran” is also vacant…it should have an entry such as: VETERAN- Ticket To Cookie Jar (TTCJ) hereafter.

  3. Great “Bad VA” Art today, Ben.

    What concerns me most about the whole sorry mess is that veterans who have honorably served this nation are killing themselves every day because they cannot stand the pain.

    For some, it is the physical, chronic debilitating pain that not being able to adapt to, or get decent relief from. For others, it is the mental pain that years of dealing with a corrupt, illogical, bloated VA bureaucracy that spends millions upon millions for positive PR – – – yet cannot deliver the most basic healthcare competently.

    A Veteran suffering from PTSD is not going to receive much help from an organization that actively hinders them from getting the care and compensation they have earned and need. And the Dinosaurs VSO’s do very little for the veteran community at large. Too cozy a relationship with the VA.

    America as a whole could care less. Well, the upcoming war with Iran and Syria will probably not bode well with getting the VA’s problems fixed. If they cannot take care of the needs of veterans now, how are they possibly going to handle the large influx that will soon be headed their way.

    While POTUS Trump has promised to fix the VA, I am seeing precious little evidence that anything is really happening. I am willing to give him a bit more time. I think though, that Shulkin, who says he does not believe in massive change – – – is a pretty good indicator of what we can expect. Not much at all.

    Bernie Sanders would have had a few heads rolling across the oval office carpet by now, were he sitting in the POTUS chair . . .

  4. Until ALL who are in Washington DC, and it’s many substandard agencies, are held accountable and responsible for their misuse of power and taxpayers monies, ———— I see little to NO change in our healthcare system – be it through the VA or civilian systems!

    I also believe, UNTIL these ingrates, who profess to be “OUR” representatives, start acting like “grown-ups”, “WE THE PEOPLE ARE FUCKED!”

    There’s so damn much corruption in all facets of our government, from local to federal, it’s too hard to keep up with it all!

    It was reported, (Utube video), last night, during the confirmation hearings of Gorsuch, he complained “…attorneys have a higher rate of suicide…” than the rest of the population. Maybe he’s unaware of the military/veteran suicide rate issue!?

    It was also reported yesterday, (from: “MLordandGod”- Utube video), Obama “…violated the Constitution…” multiple times in a “6 to 2 Decision” concerning multiple “executive orders” he signed!

    In the past MANY decades, “We the People” have been lied to on so many issues to list! It’s about time “We the People” start letting our voices be heard!
    “RyanO-Care” is being “delayed” due to the “last minute changes”. Two of which, excludes veterans and allows “Foreign Citizens” to remain on it!
    There are other ‘provisions’ on it which screw taxpayers!

    In my opinion, “IF” Congress believes VA healthcare is so fuckin’ great. Force them to use it in their districts! Of course, they won’t. Because they know how fucked up VHA healthcare really is!
    What they’ll do is the same as before. They’ll “opt out” of any government run healthcare system! They’re nothing but a bunch of cowardly little rat bastards!

    Sorry about the rant this morning. I’m just getting a little pissed off at what was promised to us by both parties. And they are failing in almost all those promises!
    Next election cycle is the time to get it right. Vote all those in elected positions out – Democrats AND Republicans! None of which deserve our trust any longer!

    • There’s so damn much corruption in all facets of our government, from local to federal, it’s too hard to keep up with it all!………….bottom line that is the problem

    • Mr Crazy Elf; I’m pissed too. In fact I am so pissed that I quit posting here. Not that I disagree with Ben or my brothers (and sisters) who post their comments here. It’s that while rereading my own posts here that I realized all my posts sounded the same. Kill ’em, machine gun ’em, stomp ’em etc, etc, etc. This was and is no good for our cause. But God Damn It I’m pissed!!!
      In 05 i got a liver transplant (hep c). To give you an idea of how bad it really was. I died three times waiting for the transplant. I had so much toxin running through my brain that I couldn’t tell the difference between the hot and cold knobs on the shower. Scalded myself pretty good with that stunt, stepped through the glass shower door, (didn’t think to open it) stepped into the toilet and nearly broke my leg. It’s a good thing I was already in a wheelchair. 16 months ago my shoulders started giving me grief. I’ve got 10% use of my left arm. A year ago I was diagnosed with skin cancer. A few months ago, I received even better news. My liver is failing again and there will be no new liver this time. They have given me 4 reasons why. Last month I found that I also have Esophigial AND Thyroid cancer as well. Guys, I’m a dead fucking duck.
      That brings me back to the suicide thing. Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, When this Veteran gets that sick again, He’s checking out and no one will stop it. I will not get that sick and put my family through hell once again. My wife of 36 years has already cleaned up enough puke and shit to last her the rest of her life. I doubt that when the time comes, I will be too sick to do any thing rash but if you just gotta kill yourself why not take a bunch of these rat bastards with you!

      • @Ralph D Carmona Sr: Ralph, I am truly sorry to hear of your health, I wish the rest of your life is as pain free as possible, and you are somehow able to enjoy the time you have left with you loving family. My thoughts are with you.

      • @Ralph D Carmona Sr: You do not need to give these rat bastards any excuse to use you as a statistic or any satisfaction in letting them win by lowering your integrity. You have our prayers and try to make the very best of each day you have with your family.

      • Thank you cj and namnibor your support is very welcome. When I wrote “I doubt that when the time comes” It should have read I DON’T doubt that when the time comes. While I won’t allow myself to get that sick again. Meaning that I wouldn’t be in a position to “Get some payback’ but my final question remains valid. And while I’m still on a rant here I would like to thank Ben and EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU who comment here. I’m here every day and your words mean the world to me. Once again, THANK YOU AND GOD BLESS YOU!

      • Ralph D Carmona Sr
        Your comment touched a nerve, one of the last few I have & after having rolled varies thoughts around my being; I want to provide feedback.

        In 2013 a Citation of Honor was awarded to the Veterans Health Administration for providing palliative[relieving pain without dealing with the cause of the condition] & end-of-life care services to Veterans throughout the country — is that a joke cause I’m not laughing.

        5 states have Death with Dignity statutes: California (End of Life Option Act; 2016) Colorado (End of Life Options Act; 2016) Oregon (Oregon Death with Dignity Act; 1994/1997) Vermont (Patient Choice and Control at the End of Life Act; 2013) Washington (Washington Death with Dignity Act; 2008).

        Until the Dept of VA acknowledges state laws & allows physicians to help patients who want voluntary euthanasia & self-deliverance from further suffering the matter must be taken into our own hands. When the time comes As a guide to self-deliverance Derek Humphry’s book Final Exit provides compassionate alternatives Lets not go out with a bang that leaves the family left behind in chaos, attempting to take any rats with you will be silenced & covered up – no one but your family/friends will know, please don’t. We come into the world in a violent trauma messy birth perhaps leaving in a calm peaceful final exit will mean a “Good Death” Be well Be at Peace. You are loved.

      • [email protected]

        It’s quite evident that in most cases the only post’s which survive are the ones that are Pro VA and speak positively about a government service that is so archaic and inept that to describe it honestly would identify criminal activities. I am sure there are clinics in some distant towns which have the veterans care in mind. Guess I have not been there yet.
        I my state at least (MI) millions are spend on advertising TV and Radio praising the services of the VA but nobody os listening.

      • RALPH CARMONA check this article and web sight it might help you out. i have tried all three and vitamin B17 it worked for me. sometimes you have to think outside of the box
        Conquer Fear and Live Free Treating Cancer with Voltage, Alkalinity and Oxygen……here is my email address ….”[email protected]”…. I had nothing to lose so i tried it…….i don’t give a fuck who has me e mail address fuck the VA. MY PHONE IS ALWAYS CLICKING SO I MUST BE ON SOMEBODY’S SHIT LIST….LOL

  5. As always privatization results in cost cutting through unskilled personnel resources and failed contract enforcement. What is new?

  6. The crisis lines are a complete failure and they know it. Truth is that we ALL know it. Suicide is the problem that everyone lowers their voices to talk about, averts their gaze from patients who are afflicted with suicidal ideation, and VERY quickly change the subject when the idea of ending your own trail comes up.

    With VA it goes FAR, FAR, FAR beyond the societal fact that almost every child is kept in the dark around the family dinner table about suicide. I could spare enormous discomfort by simply repeating the fact that government is put in place as a “necessary problem” seen as nessesary because we decided we all needed common things done, but I won’t because it just is not in my nature to lower my voice.

    The government is not a solution to ANY social problem at all. It is the absurd notion that government can “fix” things before they are broken that is a core lie which keeps VA funded.

    Government simply cannot do much more than respond and pick up the bodies after the problems of life emerge. Firefighters do not generally leave the firehouse for work unless the fire is already started. Police rarely poke around places in which crimes have not already been committed. Ambulances are not dispatched until you are laying around dying. Judges do not rule until a case is brought before them. In other words, we shove the REALLY icky stuff onto the shoulders of government to deal with, and so long as our own house is not on fire most could care less how well the maintenance on Fire Engine Number One is doing, or even really care that Fire Engine Number One even exists.

    Let me tell you about the harm that these VA call centers generate, and BELIEVE me when I tell you that in suicide prevention group my experience was typical. I am diagnosed with suicidal ideation.

    I contacted the online version of vet crisis to talk about the increased morphine doses VA had been sending me. I felt in a spiral and out of control. I was on my iPad walking at night. All of a sudden the messages from the center changed to “…we just want you to be safe, where are you?” over and over again. I typed repeatedly I was safe and not going to off myself, but I immediately set out for home. I pleaded with them not to send police.

    I kept typing, “I’m safe! I am not suicidal! Please do not send the police!” over and over while I walked. A later FOIA request revealled that the original taker of the “call” had ended her shift and had simply left the line open without explanation for the next woman. The next woman decided that it was better to send the police than believe me. She just did not trust me when I informed her that my house was NOT on fire (so to speak).

    When I got home the police had already entered my home and were waiting inside. Four of them, all with hands resting on their sidearm. They had gained entry by smashing the huge picture window of my front door. The front door was all glass with a frame and they smashed it right in pretty good and with enough force to spray glass from the front to the back of my home. They immediately took me into custody despite informing them of the mistake. They said they had no Choice.

    The cops laid me down in the back seat of their patrol car and transported me several miles to the local hospital and dumped me there. Oregon law requires a physician to place a hold onto a suicidal patient otherwise the hospital has zero authority to hold or treat you. They do not want you because vets earn them nothing, or at best they only get paid after protracted negotiations.

    Since I was not suicidal and the cops had already left, I was left with walking home several miles because when they took me I had no money and nobody to call at that hour. It took hours to walk home in the cold and when I got home the sound of the broken glass crunching under my feet and police tape up all over the place made me feel like Alice In Wonder Land. Mynown home had become the Rabbit Hole.

    This saga repeated itself in group from others too many times to count. One old man was at the end of his rope over this. He said, “How can they just come take you away in America?” as he held back tears. The truth? The law says they cannot in Oregon unless Due Process initiated by the county mental health folks is followed. The law says if they DO take you away and the hospital physician will not place a mental hold on you, then the police are REQUIRED to return you physically from where they took you immediately

    However……the VA has a memorandum of understanding with the police…. (sound familiar?)

    Instead of requiring County mental health officials to initiate the apprehension of a mentally ill person (the law in EVERY state places this task correctly with the county), when the Eugene Oregon police get a call from Indianapolis that a vet is suicidal they simply ignore the state and county laws. When I challenged Eugene Oregon police later regarding both the apprehension and the dropping off of my body and releasing custody at a place far from home, they said simply they had an agreement with the VA to behave this way.

    We have talked about gun rights. Just try this one on for size; a call taker three time zones away leaves her post in the middle of a call from an iPad. Then the new call taker simply calls the local police and has them deprive you of liberty and property on their word alone and take you against your will to a distant hospital. The distant hospital will not treat you or otherwise want to deal with you as a vet if you deny suicidal ideation because if you deny it then VA will not pay them to treat it (this from the hospital admin). Even when you admit to it, VA will withhold payment if you do mot agree to be transported to a VA facility.

    I have heard this play out again and again in suicide treatment prevention groups until I was banned from them for going to the press about VA.

    The number of complete cluster fucked apprehensions is staggering and the REASON they are circle jerking vets in crisis around is that they COMPLETELY bypass county, state, and local law. The VA itself injects the reason to complete suicide by piling hopelessness on top of humiliation and tops it off by sending you the bill for the ER room because it was not pre authorized by them even though they caused you to be apprehended.

    The problem is simple – in order to carry out their job duties, a VA suicide call center MUST operate outside of state and county law. The laws are in place to stop the very sort of thing that happened to me and countless others from being denied freedom unjustly and without Due Process, which is a common theme with VA. The local laws are in place after decades and decades of experience with how to deal with a person in crisis. Enter the VA, and a magical bullet called a “memorandum of understanding” terminates all patient and citizen rights and not one godamn person can be held accountable. Not one person cares.

    The question is really not whether the calls to these centers prevents suicide and saves lives. The question is, on the miles long walk home alone at 3 am after being manhandled out of their home, how many decided to end their own trail of despair BECAUSE of VA.

    My guess is at least 22 per day. Think about what life would be like if we placed ALL services with the federal government – If your house is on fire, just call the federal call center in Indiana. The person you talk to will decide how to best handle it. If the neighbors dog bites you, call the “federal dog bite” crisis line to get action. If the sewer system becomes clogged and is flooding the street with brown trout, call the “federal poop is in the street” crisis line.

    These things are ridiculous to suggest, yet todays blog is about something FAR MORE ridiculous and deadly; If you are at the end of your rope and suicidal, just “call the federal suicide prevention” line. Shit, they didn’t even bother sweeping up all the broken glass which was sprayed from front door to back wall. Tell me, if you are armed and police showed up at YOUR door without warrant and smashed it in to take you away without reading you Miranda rights (because you have none as a mental health patient)…what would you do in a moment of crisis?

    • required reading for everyone.

      i called the call center one time.

      i was crying like crazy. the little girl on the answering end interrupted me and told me in a scolding voice that this suicide line is for veterans.

      i told everyone at the VA about this when they want me to call if i feel suicidal. i tell them i will not ever call, and i refuse to take the card. this suicide call line is to make you commit suicide.

      if every vet had a buddy to call, or a few, that might help. i don’t really know what will help as long as bossman slavemassa want us dead.

    • VA CRISIS HOTLINE ONE BIG BIG FRDERSAL RICO CRIME RACKET RUN BY @ GFOR AFGE UNION CONTRACTS VETS YO ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SCREWED AGIN @ AGIN @ AGIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Awesome commentary, Dennis. Your experience as related quite obviously provided for what the VA terms “Good Veteran Outcomes”. Thank you for sharing with us.

      What a bunch of fucktards these PC pussies are. 33 % of them simply don’t give a shit. 33 % of them won’t recognize the problem until it bites them in the ass, and the remainder actively work to get the veterans who call that number to end their life.

      I have had a few encounters with the police as well over the same subject. Fortunately (for me) not as horrific as yours. Still not pleasant, though.

      Time for the VA to put a little truth in their advertising, and get honest. Change the motto from “To care for him who has borne the battle” to “To kill off veterans as fast as possible”. I am quite sure they have some PR firm who could spin that motto in a positive manner.

    • [email protected]

      I was that Fire Fighter on many occasions that picked up the pieces of the Vet. Being a Vietnam Vet with PTSD and having to bag another brother was always very hard to live through.

  7. Which of any of these points concern you the most and why?

    Ben, all of these “points” concern me.
    They seem to be more nonsensical mishmash.
    Deception and time-buying while the machine continues to eat people.

    Part of the deception here is that this VA problem is merely a business problem.
    And the VA is a business.
    They run it in a way that maximizes their (directors, officers, and shareholders) profit.
    Or, if it is a nonprofit, then they maximize it for their take of the nonprofit.
    While the VA makes it seem like massive problems that mire in bureaucracy and can’t get it done or politics or not enough $ or not enough Ahmed doctors or too many suicides …

    these are not difficult business problems to solve. If they wanted the problems solved, they would be. They don’t run Microsoft like this. Or Goldman Sachs. Or healthcare for Congress. All those businesses run smooth. Because they know how to run a business. Hire MBAs and fix it to work.

    Here, though, it is working. It’s not working in vet’s favor, but it’s not supposed to. Or it would. The VA is not the most complex business model in the world. Except it is. Made like that to accomplish the purpose.

    What purpose?

  8. Oh, I have to get this off my chest after trying to watch local news here now: I could give a dozen rat’s asses about where the hell Tom Brady’s super bowl jersey was found and the scandal the news just gobbles-up, along with the continual droning-on of McCain and Graham….while the VA Swamp is so polluted it’s on fire like the Cuyahoga Rover up in Cleveland did once.

    I’m thinking most Americans will quickly forget anything about Tom Brady’s jersey when they go to call an ambulance to go to ER under proposed new healthcare bill, and you find out the Ambulance ride nor the Emergency Room costs are covered…yeah, in perspective here, Tom Brady should give that damn jersey to a Homeless Veteran on the street going through a dumpster…so that Homeless Vet can wipe his ass with that jersey and toss it back.

    Yeah, in a Friday *mood* today. Veteran Suicide FAIL by the VA seems to do it every time. I wonder if it has anything to do with fact I have lost all my best friends in this city in last 7 years and a solid 3 were from direct negligence of the VA? Yeah, that’s the ticket… Make that -4-, must not forget the suicide by cop via the VA’s own Suicide Crisis Line hacks last year.

  9. Why are all of you complaining about the VA? Can’t you see that the VA sets a perfect example, of how the United States Government takes care of the ones that served their country? Veterans have no reason to complain, most Veterans get free healthcare. And when they need immediate help during a crisis, they can use a secondary contact to leave a message for a VA representative to call them back.

    For me, I’m still waiting. Has anyone got a call back when they contacted the VA for immediate help? Who else is there that might be able to help me? Who has my six? Who do I trust? Where is all of my family? Who understands? Who really wants too understand? Click . . . click . . . click . . . noise . . . another lifeless Veteran.

    So what’s the tally now? Oh yeah right, who’s counting anyway? “You dumb mother fuckers, Veterans are counting. And, we Veterans don’t forget, because you, the VA, is the real enemy that jeopardizes the life of a Veteran when they finally get home.”

    • Your first paragraph gave me a much needed chuckle. Your second and third paragraphs were spot on as usual.

      • @Disgruntled Veteran – Glad you got a little abdominal reflex from the contents of my post. VA continues to pull their dam circle jerking tactics, that effects my entire household. Its hard to keep a balance in my life and to think positive. I’m not complaining, I’m just expressing how it is when dealing with this screwed up agency. My goodness DV, for the life of me, I can’t see why there isn’t only one person that puts the hot flaming rod of fire on the VA’s anal sphincter, to open up the gateway of changes. Those of us that are problem solvers, are most likely the ones that are pissed off the most due to the VA’s lack of change.

        By the way, how is your speech recognition software going? A friend of mine has it too, and he has been working the bugs out for a while. Yes, he running Windows 10.

      • ANutterVet – – – Haven’t got it yet. Other things have used the funds I had set aside for that. Someday, then I will be able to be much more productive. Still, try to just push through – – – even if it means I must abandon caps and punctuation in order to get commentary out at times.

        I know the Brothers and Sisters here understand, as we all have medical crosses to bear. New computer coming into house soon – – – that one will be running LINUX. Wundozing10 is IMHO a VA designed O/S.

        You will know by time-lag reduction and increased frequency of postings, that I have it.

        Email you in a few days. Have probable solution to your vaping problem – – – but need contact someone your locale vape scene that I trust first to clear you for contact. Going to take a few days away from this computer. Sunshine and fresh air is calling so loud that I cannot ignore it anymore.

  10. And they wonder why guys are blowing their brains out in front of VA hospitals. The VA will next install perimeter gates and fences and search cars for weapons before entering. That way we can kill ourselves off government property. “Didn’t Happen Here …Phew”

    • Nah, the VA spared no expense. They will now require every Veteran stepping on VA Federal Property to wear a human head neck collar like the type your Veterinarian places on your pet after a surgery, but this large diameter Veteran Blast Collar (VBC) will be there to prevent we Vets from blowing our brains out. 🙂

      (dark humor warning, it’s my coping mechanism, just deal with it and roll with it…)

      • More like to catch the fluids and gray matter that emanate from our heads when we do blow our brains out. That way, they will not have to exert the required effort to clean up the mess . . .

      • You make a valid point. The Kevlar Veteran Blast Collar also acts as a funnel for the liquefaction contents to bag for the Jeffery Dahmer’s working in the VA basements. Less work, less fuss.
        Stay away from the loafing meat and the meat loaf at the Canteen Cafeteria.

      • Yup! Adjustable, just like a radiator hose clamp with the screw. Because Vet’s always seem to get the screw in the end.

      • @Nam – – – Being that we are nearly the same age, and attended our “graduate courses in real-world foreign-soil military training” just a few years (at most) apart, I suspect our sense of humor is quite similar. Tough and Dark.

        Remember. “It don’t mean a thing . . . ” as we used to say about the most meaningful and serious subjects a human could be expected to face, let alone function through.

        By and large, tough, dark humor is something most Americans do not seem to handle too well. But in our youth – – – it helped keep us alive. And still seems to help maintain some minor semblance of sanity today.

  11. I had to go find this from my deleted stuff VA sent this email out yesterday. Perhaps the chat online & text messages are considered “the fix”
    VA fixes Veterans Crisis Line
    In response to the recently released VA Office of Inspector General (OIG) report that reviewed processes from June 6 through Dec. 15, 2016, of the Veterans Crisis Line (VCL), the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) released the following statement: “The Department of Veterans Affairs is proud to announce that the challenges with the Veterans Crisis Line have been resolved. Prior to the opening of our new Atlanta call center, our call rollover rate often exceeded 30 percent. Our current call rollover rate is less than 1 percent, with over 99 percent of all calls being answered by the VCL.”
    “Suicide prevention is one of our highest priorities,” said Secretary of Veterans Affairs David J. Shulkin. “Fixing the Veterans Crisis Line was a critical step in keeping our commitment to Veterans.”
    To reach a VA professional, who is specially trained to attend to emotional crises for Veterans and service members:
    Dial the National Suicide Prevention Hotline number, 800-273-TALK (8255). Veterans should choose option 1 to reach a VCL responder;
    Text 838255 — A VCL responder will text back.
    Chat online at” https://www.veteranscrisisline.net/”

  12. This is some President huh? just like he last one, and the one before, and so on. AS for the opiod issue, he could stop this madness with an executive horderve, and yet, where is it?
    He could change instantly many issues to help veterans, and yet, where is it?
    Not a single Congressman or Senator has the balls to block anything that is detrimental to veterans, yet not a single one has lifted a finger to help. We have rapists running amuk in all branches of the military, and yet nothing is ever done, after all it is the victems fault right? The same military that refused for years that there was even a suicide issue at all. You think any of these entities gives a shit about you or your family? HAHAHAHAHAHA, your need to start doing stand up comedy to support yourself.

    Woooopie the fuckall, wow, we showed them down in Florida didn’t we? We got them to hang those darn portraits of two more usless pieces of shit, good the fuck for us. It did nothing for veterans issues………..NOTHINGGGGGGGGGG!!! So we got the pictures hung, when are we going to start hanging ass-ministrators at the VA? I hope all these useless piece’s of gnat shit, and their entire families develope very painfull brain tumors……..and NO…NO FUCKING PAIN MEDS FOR YOU………….FUCK OFF………………You think I am being a lil too hard on the president, the va administrators, the usless fucking Congressmen, and Senators and their leach families? Really? You think a single one of them give a rats ass about YOU, YOUR health, YOUR family? NO……….THEY DON’T FUCKING CARE, AND THEY NEVER DID…….Infact they LOATHE EVERY ONE OF YOUR HERE, you see, spending money on you, prevents them from growing their bank accounts. Remeber that photo op of then vp Biden recieving an award like he was some kind of fucking something, when really he was a do nothing nothing, Same as Hollow woodie, gathering to give themselve awards for pretending to be other people, and we are the demented ones? These people have been systematicly destroying this country from the inside out. Transvestites, and Illegals have more rights than all of us veterans combined. Pedophiles in every sector of government. they must not only, NOT have the balls, but also lil teenie tiny penii, or they wouldn’t be targeting childeren. BANANA GREASED BUTT FUCKERS, have more rights than any of you do. Ask yourself, What the fuck is wrong with a country that places more importance on every aspect of society than it does it’s veterans? You did what you thought was right, and many of our brothers and sisters gave the ultimate sacrifice, as they hand out a metal to the family and a big fuck you, as they vote themselves raises for a job well done while trying to cut yours. All these do nothing false hero’s that ride there military service to get into the DC neener neeener neener club, and we aint invited, nor are we part of it. They care about NOTHING, not dead veterans, not veterans in need, not even about that disabled child down the block, or in your own living room. This is a system that is evil at its core. We all sit here on this blog and complain, and whine, like a bunch of ball-less little bitches, myself incuded. It is time this blog is turned into COMMAND CENTRAL, we need to start strategizing on how we are going to take back what is rightfully ours, We need to start taking back this country from the traitors in DC, Doing it by complaining, or filing lawsuits, or any other BS that has no fucking affect, needs to stop, it is a waste of time, and plays right into their hands and policy of deny till they die. A simple desire to change this country for the better and a simple message to DC, We are on our way, and you better be gone by the time we get there. It is time to eject the ejaculators. I can just see all the various money sucking agencies, Did he just threaten the overthrow of the UnUnited Republic of Anexed States of all Refugetized Gay as all fuck MOOSE LUMPS UNITED? Ahhhh fuck this damn TBI, another lost train of thought.wooo woooo chuga chuga chuga, Charlie says, love my good fucking over!!!!All aboarrrrrrrrrrd the last train to fuckeryville is about to depart. Next stop is the Vicariously Assinine Mindfuckery Club.
    ………︽……….__________ …_________..____________
    ……__|_|__***-‘| 門|_田_田_|..|門 |_田_田_|.|門|_田_ 田_|
    ….(◕)_____)•||_||.______|•|| _||.______|•||_||._____ _ | •__
    …//_\\(●)═(●)•═-•(●)•═•(●)•- ═-•(●)•═•(●)•-═-•(●)•═• ( ● ) woooooooooooo wooooooooooo chuga chuga!

    • * boycott *
      which is just common sense, not really revolutionary.
      boycott what? all of it.

      there’s a start.

      good rant, cj. it’s a great read. punctuation/grammar? i don’t care because i can read big blocks but others might bog down. and i’d like everyone to read the whole thing. it’s good.

      • @lawyerlynn – I believe what cj is stating is that the whole dam system is amuck. The system is glued together with so much bullshit that it stinks when your not even close to it. A disgrace to the human race. There are no party affiliations when it comes to the issues that we Veterans face and that we have to battle against.

      • @laweyelynn: Thank you Lynn, I wish I was capable of proper punctuation, and paragraph formation. I am not, and most times my spelling is just as horrible. There was a time, but no longer. My mind is inured and no longer works like it should. Each day another veteran post the trechory they have been subjected to. How much of this can we take? How long are we going to sit by and do nothing while our brothers and sisters have to live a life in both phsyical pain and mental pain. I love each and everyone of them and it breaks my heart. I want revenge, I want blood on my hands. I want to exact change, not beg for it.

      • CJ, yes, it’s alot of sad story.
        I didn’t mean to insult you or micromanage your post, i was just wanting everyone to be able to easily read what you wrote.
        I think you asked what can we do …
        My suggestion is to boycott.
        That’s all. It’s something we can do.
        Not one here can round up a posse and go get the bad guys.
        So we can do what we can to help change the system,
        stay away from anything system-y as we can until it changes.
        Or until we get our own system.
        Start small & keep it simple. Then we may see progress. Or not.
        At least we can do something as action to demonstrate integrity.

        I like the idea of veteran buddy system too. But I don’t have a way to do it. Only can give the idea. Maybe someone more able knows someone who can help with it.

      • @lawyerlynn: Lynn, I din’t take anything you said as insulting, I though it was constructive, and not micro managing. I am a lot more thick skinned than that 🙂
        I apreciate feedback of any kind, it is how discusions happen right? I have said this before here, I view all of us as one big family, and as a family we may not always get along, thats okay too. Even if we are at each others throats at times, we are all bound by the same blood. I would hope that, that kind of bond by blood, would transcend all else.

        When I hear what has happened to my brothers, and sisters at the hands of the VA, I take it personally. I haven’t been here on Ben’s blog very long, and in the short time I have been here, I have read comments from several veterans that are not going to be with us much longer. These veterans I will never get to sit next to and have a beer with. They have also been fighting their entire life for what is owed to them. It saddens me that they fought a battle against a corrupt organization, and never received justice. It saddens me even more, that I will never get the chance to shake their hand, or share a laugh. “Anger” doesn’t even come close to what I feel.

        These are good men and woman on this blog, and they represent the thousands, that we will never know, that are going throught he same struggles. I just wish……………………..there was something I could do, instead of feeling…………….so………..lost and helpless.

      • @Lawyerlynn: Boycott all of it. Won’t that play into their hands? We boycott, they spend no money on us at all, That gives them even more money for bonuses. Am I wrong here?

      • lol. i don’t care about spelling.
        if enough boycott, it will tip over.
        must have bodies thru the grinder or grinder will seize?

        i read what you wrote and wanted you to know i got the message and at least offer one idea to think about.

        maybe it’s easy for me to say stay away because i don’t really have a choice, being called an abuser for speaking too loudly & saying some truth to dr. ahhhmad that hurt his feelings, apparently. so i am in defacto boycott, but anyone who has trouble should go somewhere else, the problem is there is not really anywhere else, as many say, out is as bad as in.

        have a wonderful night everyone & blessings be.

      • @lawyerlynn – Boycotting? Sounds good but it is not feasible. I’d die because there are services that I need from the VA on a monthly basis. Its hard to boycott from your healthcare when the VA holds the carrot, and they know that Veterans are the donkeys. Holding the VA accountable is the only solution. Shootz, the VA can’t even hit the mark of success with their own plans that they create. Let Veterans run the VA, and get the union out of the mix. Just sayin.

      • Try to be optimistic now. Positive lip service should begin in about 3 years. They all have to wave that flag early in the elections. If were good boys and girls, we’ll hear about our brave saps …. veterans in 2 1/2 years.

      • @Windguy – And then there will be some that say, “oh yes, it will be fine, go ahead and hold your breath. They’ll be getting back to you before they shut the lid.” LMAO, not really.

    • CJ says: “AS for the opiod issue, he could stop this madness with an executive horderve,”

      Not sure that a full State Dinner for America’s Disabled Vets could feed the hunger among our nation’s broken patriots that these asswipes have created, let alone a hors d’oeuvre.

      Great Rant. Your points well taken.

      How’s Abbott your end? Costello doing just fine here.

      • @Disgrunted Veteran: LOL I should have used a better term than “horderve” In my fucked up mind “horderve” sounded close enough to order, only from the spoiled DC crowd, that care not about us peasants. And, then there was that whole temporary insanity business, just befor hitting the “post” button like I was launching ICBM’s. Scwewy wabbit:
        ┈╱▔▔▔╲▕╱╱╱▔▔▔╲
        ╱╭╱▔╲╮▔┈▔╭╱▔╲╮╲┈
        ▏┊▏┈▕╭╮┈╭╮▏┈▕┊▕┈
        ▏┊▏┈╱┃┃┈┃┃╲┈▕┊▕┈
        ▏┊▏╱┈┃▋┈┃▋┈╲▕┊▕┈
        ╲╱▕▔▔▔╲▃╱▔▔▔▏╲╱┈
        ┈┈┈╲┈╰┳┳┳╯┈╱┈
        ┈┈┈┈▔▔┗━┛▔▔┈

  13. The VA doesn’t care about Veterans, their spouses, or other family members. They could care less if your in distress, even when you call out for help. Useless. Fucking useless. An agency that has been dealing with Veterans issues for decades, and still can’t get it right. All they care about is getting funding for their existence which is a mirage that shows the uneducated or non caring public that Veterans are being taken of. What a crock of shit.

    I’m still waiting to get off the VA’s Circle Jerking Train of Promises. Anybody listening? No time for fucking jokes.

  14. I just returned from a “Welcome Back from Vietnam” put on at the Lee County Florida VA Clinic. I waited 47 years and drove 32 miles each way for stale coffee, a cookie and VA propaganda material. The Lee County VSO’ were there and as confused as ever. No cake, no balloons. I passed on the cookie. I asked a specific question about my upcoming C&P exam. The VSO replied yes or maybe no. Brilliant. He was interested in the cookies.

    I was offered a tin badge of some sort and a sticker. Lame, Lame, Lame . Per a VA employee, outside Lawyers would never be allows in a Federal Building. Nor would common sense.

    Maybe the VA felt some accomplishment. I did not.

    • You just came up with a good idea. We should host an attorney meets client forum at such venue as can be locally obtained for veterans who need representation.

      Will start working on one here in Torrington, Wyoming./

  15. I don’t believe they forgot to collect any data. I think they have been collecting it all along. I think a more likely senario is, the data wasn’t what they wanted to see. What they then did, was send it to the National archives in St louis, and it all ended up just like this: “http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/federal-workers-dumped-stashed-or-trashed-records-at-st-louis/article_8611ae42-359d-539d-b21c-5e864b02d672.html”

  16. Gone for the rest of the day, will talk later gators. Be carefull out there, eyes are upon you.
    ¯¯̿̿¯̿̿’̿̿̿̿̿̿̿’̿̿’̿̿̿̿̿’̿̿̿)͇̿̿)̿̿̿̿ ‘̿̿̿̿̿̿\̵͇̿̿\=(•̪̀●́)=o/̵͇̿̿/’̿̿ ̿ ̿̿

  17. I was pondering for quite some time, why is it that some VA employees seem to be a little bitchy. And then the answer hit me. “They’re nothing by dehydrated bloated toads, with a large dropping stuck halfway out of their anal sphincter, and the dropping shimmies a little up, then a little down.” Then I understood what these poor VA employees were going through. And then that’s when compassion hit me. Boy, what a relief, and now I feel better too.

  18. Understanding and compassion, I know you are using those words for Veterans, and not VA. Even though, I believe in prayers for my enemy. I know Dennis covered how I feel in dealing with the VA, and in his usual eloquent way. @Cj is feeling it. Hell, we all are fed up. LawyerLyn(sp….), I like the idea of striking back. I would most likely be part of something, just don’t think I’ve heard it yet. @Lem, You’ve come up with some good stuff. I too wonder what Dr. Shulkin and POTUS are thinking. Hope one of them will speak up, I just would like to know that they are getting what we are getting. There is so much more pain out there than need be. God Bless y’all…

  19. Let me be brutally honest here while remaining optimistic:

    The way the train wreck of the proposed Obamacare replacement was at the last minute, and learning they even knee-jerked and did some oral service to their owners (or donors…easily confused), and those bastards even *removed* Mental Healthcare coverage and other important healthcare scenarios/treatments.

    We now know it did not pass because other swamp beasts could not vote for it and face the torches and pitchforks from those pesky villagers (sometimes they even vote), so Obamacare is now left…”to let it explode”, as Pres. Trump said.

    Concerning regarding our plight and fight to clean-up the VA Swamp?

    Sure is. The VA is already a solid 69 train wrecks on any given week…the methods at last minute to just “pass something” with the ACA worries me about a shitty attempt to do needed vast improvements at the VA.
    I am not losing hope…but I was fooled by that thing called hope many times before and it is still early in game.
    I am just worried this will now set the entire pace of the D.C. chess game, and I wonder if Pres. Trump now realizes that MANY of the very swamp beast congress critters even in his own party, are very much part of the problem…including Paul Ryan.
    Pres. trump has a shitload of obstructionists in his path and the VA has been impacted with shit for a very long time.
    Something will have to give, and soon.

  20. @Namnibor – Your wrong. Utter nonsense. Your information will bound things up.

    For the VA to change, each Medical Center and Clinic needs to strategically place [preferably at the front entrance], the new Glutial Max Spreader Pro with the new and improved Old Time Soapy Suds Powder [now with water dissolved silicone gel encapsulated in high surface tension microbeads with laser holes for fast lubricant release]. For easy access, each Glutial Max Spreader Pro should be placed at the entrance of each VA facility or clinic. For best results, use hot scolding water. This should loosen things up to increase flow for the necessary desired changes.

    Units are also available for our Elected Officials and their Staph . LMAO . . .

    • Great idea that might be a bit tidier in making the VA implode upon itself like a black hole swallowing itself…we simply dump a dump truck load of alum at each VA entrance, in which the alum will cause a vise-like tightening and closure of the sphincter called the VA, so tight that just like a black hole, swallows itself into oblivion. Even the stench would be engulfed. Nice and tidy. Then start over.

      It may likely require the back-up of our military jets to fend-off the VA and DOD from launching the likely counterattack, which would be the VA’s ICBM’s that are actually one large solid mass of Preparation H Hemorrhoid Cream, that they will target the VA’s sphincter to counter the alum attack.

      We could call this Operation Preparation H.

      The butthurt snowflakes have been protesting all weekend in my city, which also means as it gets warmer, be careful out there. Some of those snowflakes are flying lead.

  21. @ANutterVet, you sure cleared that up. The VA wants us dead. Why would anyone believe that the VA wants to save lives? No bonuses in that. VA shouldn’t handle Veterans suicide hot line. It’s counter productivity for them.

  22. The VA uses predatory tactics against Veterans that ultimately ruin the lives of Veterans, and the Veterans loved ones. You [VA] have broken almost every single ethical, professional, psychological and scientific principle that I was taught. You’re fucking evil, sick, and get enjoyment in not helping Veterans when they cry out for assistance. One day you’ll meet your match. And, when this happens, that we be all for you. Veterans will finally be free from your sadistic behaviors and manipulations. I’d suggest that you watch your six.

    For you weak ass mother fucking selfish politicians, there is blood on your hands. All that you care about is your election results, your self, your kids going to the finest schools, and the fucking money and perks that you get but don’t deserve. You’re still the same [Bob Segar song], and you will never change. Most of you are a fucking disgrace, and shouldn’t represent anyone. You’re too fucking smug. Nothing but chumps.

      • @ANutterVet: On point as always. How are you tonight? Rained all day here, got my list of to do’s done. Now relaxing by going over everyones comment. If we were all a living cloud, our cloud would rise to the heavens, and be a mean and ugly, and unforgiving cloud. As the lightning bolts are readied for insertion into the bolt blaster, the master blaster takes aim. We all have our finger on the trigger, the front sight is almost on point, the angle, the wind direction, and speed, are measured, the temperature, the humidity, are all entered into the master blasters ballistic bolt computer. Soon as the entire group of us get that evil eye look, some are chewing just a little faster on the toothpick hanging from their lip. Others have that familiar look to go along with the evil grin, because the already know their cloud launched lightning bolt fired by rightous justice will strike center target. A new game is afoot, I can tell we all are on the same page this time, not a single dangling participle, nor dingleberry for that matter. We are united and it is time. We are like an untamed tornado building speed, can you see it? Cand you feel it? Can you hear it? It is comming and I want a front seat ticket. I am all in.

    • WELL SAID NUTTER BUT I HAVE TO ADD SOMETHING TO…..All that you care about is your election results,…AND YOUR CHECKS FROM THE LOBBYISTS ……and no law is ever passed for the benefit of the people …just look at Nancy PELOSI the old senile bobble head that she is…. just sign it you can read it latter….now she says don’t sign it. its like a tattoo once you get it you cant get rid of it…… and people voted for this stupid bitch I DIDN’T AGREE WITH THE BILL EITHER BUT THAT WAS NOT THE POINT

      • A GOOD EXAMPLE TO THE ABOVE COMMENT ……”DEA Approves Synthetic Marijuana for Big Pharma Co. against Legalization
        Conquer Fear and Live Free!”…….look that up its always about the $$$$$$$$$$$$

      • here’s another reason i hate the so called medical profession…watch this on youtube …..
        Rockefeller Medicine
        corbettreport

      • @OLDMARINE – Good website. Although, I recommend additional research to support what is published. As you know, much of this information is controversial in the medical community and is not easily accepted. I brought up many topics in these areas to my VA PCP, and it is always over their heads. Big Pharma, investors, and lobbyists don’t want to believe in these types of alternative treatments for relief or cures. Less monies for them, forget saving lives. I saved the site in my favorites. Thanks for the post.

  23. @ANutterVet, @cj, i agree with your posts. It is a sicko agency. It is just disgusting and i do not see any real changes yet. i keep hoping for sweeping reform and i just don’t see anything but talking, no real life changes. i want to see it, i want the criminals in prison.

    @cj, it rained on and off today here. Warm weather in 70s. I have been not sleeping again. maybe try some melatonin, some people say it helps them.

    @ANutterVet, do you take something for sleep? Please let me know if you have any suggestions.

    • @Ex va: Oh you lucky man, the 70’s we were expecting din’t make it this far North, but still not bad around 45. The temperature is actully rising as we speak. Sorry your having trouble sleeping. You need to have a letter from the VA sitting around, reading one of those will put you to sleep real quick LOL. How have you been other than not sleeping?

      • @cj, yes, a letter from the va will shut down your brain. Forgot about that one. A lot of anxiety lately. Don’t know exactly what is going on. I did get outside a little today. Had a lot of wind and some storms, maybe weather is giving me the anxiety. Not sleeping probably giving me anxiety. Messes up my thinking gives me confusion too.

      • @Ex va: Do you like watching a good storm? Friday, and Saturday on the blog, people have been putting out there what they have been keeping inside. It is good to read all the posts. Some of this type of commenting can give you anxiety.

      • @cj, yes sometimes it does trigger some bad emotions. I feel bad about people suffering unnecessarily and i have a lot of respect for them for what they are overcoming. I understand it can get to you at times it is hellish to experience the chronic pain and i think people lack the sensitivity because they never experienced it.

        It sometimes can make me feel blessed because i sometimes get caught up in my own suffering and i hear how someone else is succeeding at what they suffer with and that gives me hope and the will to keep fighting. There is some tough people on this blog. Sometimes it does discourage me because the Vets are too good of people to have to put up with this va bs. The va is evil in their dealings and i pray for justice for the people. I have to admit the va does get me down sometimes it seems to never end with the corruption.

        If the news gets me depressed, i start avoiding it. I try to choose my battles. The va battle will be going on for years i believe and i just have to accept it.

      • @cj, no don’t like storms, been around too many tornado damaged areas. People can loose their lives to them. I know some people like hearing thunder and rain.

      • @Ex va: Yep, I am one of those that likes storms. One of my favorite things to do is sit on the front porch and watch the storms roll in and drink a hot cup of coffee. I find it mezmorizing, and calming, right up to when a bolt of ligntning hits too close and I spill my coffee all over myself LOL.

      • @cj, a good rain is nice to hear in the summertime and to cool things down. I hope it will be a good year for vegetables and fruit this year. I hope you have a good harvest. I like the more stable weather. If i get an rv i may try to live down in Arizona or New Mexico or Texas in the winter months. It is suppose to help your joints. I dunno i would like to try it. I have to save some money first.

      • @Ex va: Hot springs Ar, is suppost to be good for pain as well. Sounds like a good plan, get out of dodge before winter. I am reading complaints about Hines va, against their behavioral health unit. Some are disturbing, one so far was funny. The veteran said he was going to stick the oxygen monitor up the nurses ass LOL so they called the police. Another I am reading right now is about forced medication of a veteran that posed no threat because the quack said the veteran was agitated, and a trained killer? WTF? “https://www.illinois.gov/sites/gac/HRA/Reports/2014/14-030-9023.pdf”

      • @cj, for a psychiatrist to give a broad evaluation of Veterans as being trained killers in a psych unit tells me that he is incompetent. He is treating all Veterans in a standard of administering medications involuntarily if necessary under this premise. What the hell? I cannot believe it. Only in a va psych ward they would do such a thing. If the Veteran poses no threat to himself or others why is it being forced because of unrealistic fear a psychiatrist has towards the Veterans population.

      • @Ex va: The state agrees with you:

        The record shows that the unit physician test
        ified in court that veterans are considered
        “trained killers” and thus are held to a diffe
        rent standard when ma
        king decisions regarding
        emergency medication. The HRA cannot assign deci
        sions made on the unit
        to this stereotype,
        however we condemn this image and ask all staff to
        apply the same Mental Health Code standard
        for dangerousness that is practiced in all Mental H
        ealth treatment facilities across the State.

  24. @Ex va: I will post this again, I don’t know why the blog wants to scrunch everything to the left side:

    The record shows that the unit physician testified in court that veterans are considered
    “trained killers” and thus are held to a different standard when making decisions regarding
    emergency medication. The HRA cannot assign decisions made on the unit to this stereotype,
    however we condemn this image and ask all staff to apply the same Mental Health Code standard
    for dangerousness that is practiced in all Mental Health treatment facilities across the State.

    • @cj, It is interesting that the state did the right thing and the va did not. The va doctors are out of control. There is no accountability and that is scary that they have authority over the care of Veterans.

  25. @Ex va: Once again the state has to reming the VA to stop fucking with veterans:

    2. The record mentions the use of Restriction of Rights Notices as well as Preferences for
    Emergency Treatment, however the HRA did not receive these as they are not copied in the CD
    of this file. The HRA reminds the VA staff that these are Mental Health Code requirements and
    must be utilized when veterans are administered forced emergency treatment.

  26. @cj, this is a mental health code and they are not following what should be lawful and rights of a patient. Va is out of control.

    • @Ex va: I agree, I can sit here all day long and read these compaints, there are so many I could never read them all. Think how many must be from each state. And we are the crazy ones?

      • @Ex va: LOL that is true. Reminds me of an old joke where a shrink walks into an exam room and this guy is layin on the floor nude ballancing a peanut on the end of his dick. The shrink say “what’s wrong with you? No let me guess, one day when you get out of here your going to be a proffessional ballancer” The nude guy says “I’m never going to get out of here I am fucking nuts” lmaoooooo

  27. @Ex va: Here is a link to that complaint: “https://www.illinois.gov/sites/gac/HRA/Reports/2014/14-030-9023.pdf” it’s only 7 pages long.

    • @cj, the reports talks about an individual is entitled to humane treatment. This is what the va lacks, humane treatment, compassion, lawful treatment, ethical treatment of an individual. The individual rights mean nothing.

      • @Ex va: True, and because ther is no accountability, they feel that they can treat veterans any way they like, without reprocusions. Veterans need to be rescued for cryin out loud.

  28. @Ex va: I can find this kind of stuff all day long. It amazes me that they hold hearing n shit, and all they do is ask stupid questions. This is why I don’t believe for a second anything is ever going to change, only get worse.

    • @cj, actually that report gives me hope because it was investigated and reviewed in a court. That is why i think you will win when you get to a court. If i can get to a court i may win too. There is a possibility of justice.

  29. Why are Veterans on a different(higher) status when they trying to railroad this phony bill, and we on a different(lower) status for emergency medical care, …… What is going on up there? Too much silence from the top. One issue at a time. Without Veterans involvement or any asked for participation. All this anonymous source, now, instead of us and them, it’s us and them,and us and them. Too many sides. God Bless the Veterans.

  30. @Jo3n: Hey Jo3n, how are you tonight? I was just posting human rights violation findings at the Hines VA in Chicago. I bet this happens all over the country. There is so much evidence it isn’t funny. yet if you ever watch these hearing in DC when it comes to the VA having a black eye, none of these violations are ever mentioned. This is why I think nothing is ever going to change. If they don’t like spending money on veterans, then quit making veterans. Let them go fight their own damn wars.

    • It is sad we are getting new Veterans into this crime riddled va system. We have to keep trying to get the word out to possibly change things for are past, present and future Veterans. People need to know that things are not good in the va healthcare system. The va can kill Veterans or seriously hurt them with their negligence care.

  31. @Cj, good morning, at least they could quit bringing Veterans hope’s up every damn election, with freaking lies. Hope all is well with y’all.

    • @jo3n, good to see you. They were talking about change earlier. We are all waiting for it. I would like to see it someday. It feels like it could possibly change.

    • @Jo3n: Always lying to veterans, and then one of those liars becomes commander in chief. Right off the bat, soldiers are bound by the UCMJ to follow a liar. We really need to set up a massive march, and notify every major new organization from around the world so it gets covered non stop, We don’t leave DC till we get what we want.

  32. @Jo3n: Good morning to you as well. Also, those that can’t go for health reasons can help get the word out, so every vetean can feel they have skin in the game.

  33. Namnibor was right, even Mark Levine on his radio show said the Obama care replacement bill didn’t pass becaue it was a shit bill. And it slhouldn’t have passed. Same with the VA, don”t vote on crap laws. Don’t put crap useless laws out there to vote on just so you can say “see we care about veterans” Piss off untill you do right by us. Stay off the damn golf course and do what we pay you to fucking do.

    • Congress has to change the va. They don’t want to get their hands dirty in this mess. Need major clinic reform in va medical centers to start. The scheduling has to be addressed. The doctor and providers clinical productivity. Real changes that benefit the Veterans. I could make a very long list to correct the corrupt va system.

  34. @Ex va,@Jo3n: Hey fellas, I need to turn in for the night. Hope you sleep well, and God Bless you and everyone on Bens. Goodninight.

  35. [email protected]

    that s not all they fail to record

  36. @Ex va – Melatonin, 5 HTP, L-Tryptophan, Magnesium, GABA. Ex va, some of these can cost $$$. Best form is to purchase in capsule. Ease of use ranks like this: bulk powder [make your own capsules], capsules filled with powder, tablet form [contain high amount of inactive ingredients, less effective].

    Do research in nootropics as well. Many new organic compounds are coming into market. You also may want to look online for databases that contain information on herbs, vitamins, supplements, and nootropics. Don’t be intimated by the information. You’re going to have to read if you want to gain knowledge in this area.

    Although I was fortunate that my grandmother taught me about supplements, I still have to read a lot in order to keep up with what is happening in this industry. Once you know the basics, everything will fall into place. Ex va, I encourage you to learn about supplements. Good luck my friend.

    • @ANutterVet, thank you so much. i will get these supplements. I will read up on this information. This gives me a good start on researching. I hope i can get a better understanding of this problem. Thanks again for helping me.

      • When I researched about insomnia years ago, all research pointed towards it being a big problem for the physical systems of the body to not get enough rest. That research has disappeared (at least to me) and now I can only find skewed research showing “no big deal” if you can’t sleep.

        I’ve had good luck with cannabis (of course) and “Nitey Night” tea which is valerian root in tea bags. It’s a mild sedative/relaxant and works pretty good. Bless.

      • @lawyerlynn, thank you for the information. The lack of sleep affects everything in my life. I can’t focus and function normally. I might try that nite night tea. The tea sounds good.

      • [email protected]

        what kind of tea is/was that?

      • Brand name: Nitey Night
        It’s valerian root in tea bags.
        If you have health food store, you can buy valerian root.
        Or, order online.
        I just buy the tea bags because cannabis does the good job for me, but when it’s out or when i’m in not-legal, then i use nighty night tea.
        sweet dreams.

      • @Ex va – That’s why I suggested looking into herbs as well. Strong [2 bag] steeped Chamomile Tea may help you. And, it may cost less. When you’re out running errands or shopping, go to your local health store. When there, you can look through their book titles for ideas on what to purchase. I haven’t been feeling like myself the past 2-3 weeks. I need to get some rest. Good luck.

      • [email protected]

        Instead hiring a bunch of cops with guns at the VA they should set of an alternative health food and supplement store/information booth at the various VA centers

      • I was wrong.
        Nighty Night by Traditional Medicinals is NOT valerian root, but a blend of herbs.
        Valerian is supposed to work, now I don’t have specific experience.

      • @lawyerlynn – Like anything else trial and error will define what works for each person. Valerian Root has a weird taste and I could only imagine what a tea tastes like.

        I forgot to mention that nootropics is mainly engineered compounds. If you really want to confuse most Physicians, after you learn about a couple of nootropics on what they do [of course through well recognized scientific journals], ask your PCP about them. I’d be surprised if they know about the efficacy of nootropics.

      • Thanks Nutter.
        I’ll check it out. As for telling my pcp, I don’t have one. I don’t go to doctors anymore. I got cured of doctors when so-called dr ahhhmad walked out on me, then called police because my voice was too loud for him and because i hurt his feelings.
        They are liars and poisoners. The whole lot. Their medical system is a lie. Drugs are poison. Plants are medicine. They will not use any modality that works. Ozone infusion, chelation, supplements, cannabis, etc.

        They get people hooked on pain pills when a simple plant extract, cannabis, will fix any pain whatsoever, with no side effects other than: sleepy, happy, hungry. maybe a little anxiety at first, but that’s nothing for ptsd vets, they have critical anxiety, can handle weed start up no prob. rant out. lol.

        i die before i go to doctor since dr. paki. yeah mon.

    • [email protected]

      wish there was a simple instructional site for vets like us that would suggest and explain supplements and alternative Rx

      • I know a doctor that may be able to help you with that; he’s studied herbs, etc., and he is a veteran. I’ll ask him if he will help with this, as I think he’s on little break from his med practice right now. He doesn’t believe so much in the drugs but the doctor licensing boards don’t give leeway to docs anymore. Because he’s talented, he does alot of things, and I will send you email about this if he wants to consult. Guten Nacht.

  37. I can’t remember which “site” this came from. It’s about a;
    “MEME going viral on Twitter” about Homelessness in America.
    It has pictures of women, young and old, with and without children, with torn and dirty clothes, sleeping on the streets of America!
    The main thing spoke of is: how American Female Citizens are homeless, while refugees and immigrants are receiving benefits.
    We all know how refugees and immigrants are receiving more benefits than the average person in America.

    That’s all I know for now!

  38. Supplement Database- “https://nccih.nih.gov/health/supplements”

    Save the site in your Favorites Folder for future reference. Google the phrase, “online database of supplements,” to see what other sites that Google lists and ranks.

    Additionally, exchange the word supplements and replace with vitamins, nootropics, nutraceuticals to find other databases that may be available online. And then, start reading and engulf yourself in alternative health. Hope this helps.

  39. Isn’t it something that in any given town or city in America and often at any given hour of the day, there exists an alliance known as “Alcoholics Anonymous” which of necessity provides the buildings, the telephones, the local advertisement to find the phone numbers, the groups and facilitators, and provides generally highly experienced call takers within minutes of getting a call for help, and does so without ONE SINGLE taxpayer dime?

    Isn’t it something that despite BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars funnelled into the effort, that the VA cannot pull off even a single daily local group in every town, or even one experienced and efficient call taker with a common bond, or even one place for vets to even meet to share their experience, strength, and hope?

    Isn’t it something that a bunch of drunks can pull the change from their own pockets and accomplish miracles for untold thousands, and yet VA struggles to get veterans bodies buried before they rot Yep. That sure is something…

    • Just level all the VAMC’s and plow and fertilize (after removing medical toxins), plant a plantation of the very best cannabis and am telling you that in each and every State, there will then be a central meeting place and tent cities. Yeah, that’s my utopian cure for the VA or…just banish the AFGE Union from the VA forever…disinfect, start over with a UCMJ type of fear of God rule of law and make it the very best pharmaceutical cannabis PTSD Plantation ever… 🙂

      • Maui Waui, bruddah we when got da killa buds wit full blown trichome sticky da kine crystals. Stay bit maulka side. Kine one hit wonda. Get one crutch?

      • @ANutterVet:@all: Evening everyone, I see alot of good comments tonight, a busy day at Ben’s place. Good to see you all.

      • Vets could take it over similar to how Indians took over mount rushmore & alcatraz in the 70s. remember that? Said they were repossessing what was theirs.
        Vet Cannabis Plantation in every hall, nook & cranny. All patients must work for meds. Reville, then all sick, lame and lazy, including walkers & wheelchairs to the halls to water, check ferts, nutes, lights, pruning, topping. Every hand a job for his/her ability. All halls and rooms have light fixtures already and water and drainage. LOL. Imagine the heavenly smell coming down those hallways. Piss and illness and sadness and death replaced with irie livity vibe, sweet smell of ancient perfume and green plants of healing. Dey be wavin at alla dem breddrin an sistren as dey trod on by. yeah mon. true dat. bless up one an’ all. irie ites.

    • Yes! I would like to know that as well, and plan to look it up sometime soon.
      What information/statistics are used in compiling the suicide number we’re told about?
      Who / what agency gathers the numbers?
      Where do those numbers come from? death records, police reports, newspapers, court records?
      plus other questions but those give it a start. anyone?

      • @Jo3n,@lawyerlynn: Hi Jo3n, hi Lynn. I don’t know where they get the numbers from, but I wouldn’t trust them even if I knew. Can you imagine all the veterans that would be left off of the tally for so many reasons?
        It was a car accident not a suicide, He had alcohol in his system, so she passed out in her running car in the garage by accident. He fell off the building. The damn gun went off all by itself. Not a suiceide the cop shot him. Found hanging in a tree…died of nature al causeses.

      • @cj , @lawyerlynn , @Jo3n – Under or over reported numbers? Who knows, either way they can’t be trusted. As we all feel, the main thing is one is too many.

      • @cj – Ay Brah, why fur yu talk li dat? Yu not local, yu loco [crazy]. I got stinky kine gas tonight. I backfired, my dog ran off.

      • @cj – He’s on to that cheap Russian mask. As soon as I bust it out, he looks on me, then pees on the furniture. That creep.

      • @cj, @Jo3n,@ANutterVet,@lawyerlynn, i will try to explain how the dept. of va monitors Veterans numbers concerning suicide and programs, and how medical centers are also funded. The suicide in case if the event happened at a medical center. Then it is reported as an incident and d.c. Thru VISN will ask questions of events before death and review medical record.

        Veterans are monitored thru their social security number and va medical records. When you enter the va system you are given labels and numbers. If disabled and upon death you will be given a number. How Veteran died given a number. This is how they monitor the Veteran population all by numbers. That is what we are to the government is numbers. All the government cares about is its numbers. The government has more studies about the population of their citizens then any other agency or company.

        When you are diagnosed you are also monitored by your diagnosis by a stop code that is a number. This is how funding, number of doctors/providers, by numbers of Veterans attached to the closest va clinic or va medical center. The more Veterans living in area, the more funding. I hope some of this made some sense or helped someone who was curious on how they monitor the Veteran population.

      • @Ex va – Thanks, now I’m more confused than I was before. Na, only joking. It can be a little confusing. The VA, should let us know how we are labeled, marked, tagged, tattooed, etc. Creeps.

    • @cj – Too much suffering. No kidding. Sleep 1.5 then up for 1. Then back at it again. Sometimes hard to concentrate. I’ve had a lot of better ones. Did you eat game yesterday or today?

  40. @ANutterVet: Yes that was today. I hear you on the bad sleep cycle, Nothing worse than sleep deprivation, everything is maginified when you lack sleep.

    • @cj – Did you mention that you were having some sort of partridge bird? Started with the letter C. Did you watch the UNC and Kentucky College Basketball game. Excellent.

      • @cj – Yeah, now I remember. I looked it up but forgot how to spell it. I didn’t know if you were a jock or what. I don’t sports either, only the finals when I can. I just act to get along with others. My pops would always watch college instead of pro. He said more action in college, and the pros get paid too much. Dang nam, this digestive stuff is really irritating. My last 3 bowel movements were stimulated with milk of from a womans breast. Oh my, wheres my mind, I mean from milk of magnesia. I hope my wife don’t see this post. Excuse me. LOL

        Babydoll, if you see this post, please don’t get upset. Only your breasts are on my mind and no one elses. I love you sweeter. Take the card and do some shopping ok? Is everything ok now? LOL I hope the neighbors aren’t watching me laughing out loud to myself. Sick bastards peeping in my windows. Hold on, let me give them a one finger direction at the window. CJ, post my favorite picture so that all can see?

      • @ANutterVet: Hey va: I got your great healthcare riite here:

        …………………./´¯/)
        ………………..,/¯../
        ………………./…./
        …………./´¯/’…’/´¯¯`·¸
        ………./’/…/…./……./¨¯\
        ……..(‘(…´…´…. ¯~/’…’)
        ………\……………..’…../
        ……….”…\………. _.·´
        …………\…………..(
        …………..\………….\…

      • @cj – Here it is folks. It is mandatory that all VA employees [especially lifers] do 20 – 360’s on this baby. Yes, that right. We Vets want you to not only see the pain, but we want you to feel it.

        I just noticed. Where did Jo3n and lawyerlynn go? Not nice to leave the party. Only joking. They were here, then there not.

        CJ, does your wife like bling [jewelry]?

  41. @ANutterVet: A very nice group of people, but ya know what? I don’t belong around other people, I couldn’t wait to get out of there. Went from there to a vet friends and talked for a couple hours. I prefere that.

    • @cj – Welcome back to the Vet’s world. I know exactly what you mean. Sometimes I need to get away from my self. Problem is, I still don’t know how to do that yet.

      • @ANutterVet: I bet the majority would like to get away from themselves at times. Lynn smokes erbals and gets far away from herself.

      • @cj – Does she toke on store herbals or the hooch? I had to make my legal sleepy time tea [Chamomile].

      • @cj – Now I’m on point. At first I didn’t see that. I’ll tell you, I’m at that point as well. I’m getting disgusted without the teamwork.

      • @ANutterVet: I hear ya, today I just feel tired. I don’t mean tired tired, I mean mentaly drained, with all the comments. I can tell from yours and others comments I am not the only one feeling it.

      • @cj – Try post your comments at the end of the page. We have them floating all over. Don’t forget to your comment with @. I noticed that when Ex va and you post, they are up and down on the page. Where did it go?

      • ‘erb give ya a likkle time to yuhself.” ~ Bob Marley
        “https://www.youtube(dot)com/watch?v=5XI3WKssghk”

        at 19:30, Bob explain evryt’ing about da ‘erb.

        rather than herbals getting you away from you, i believe the plant is you and you are more you than before the plant. like the real you, not the you as told by VA or school or church or newspaper or terrorist watch list creators or pr spokespeople or doctors or lawyers or media or whatever new mind control is foisted on the people.

        like Bob says, you have a likkle smoke, an all dose car a pass an yuh don hear it caus’ yuh meditate. Anyway, that’s a fun documentary about when the Wailers went to New Zealand, and of course there’s the obligatory anti-Rastafarian propaganda, but it’s everywhere.

        Bless.
        Arbeit mach Frei.
        /s/ Sepp Dietrich

      • @lawyerlynn – Why stay planting such thoughts? Yeah, time 2 party. Lets talk to da plants. They have more soul than us. Oh really. LMAO Funny hit master you!

    • I’m sorry I drop the ball. It gets late and I get lost. I did fly the coop. I met the pileated woodpecker that pecks wood in my german hugelkulture garden … we met in astral plane and flew up to the dome to chill (it’s really cold up there close to the sun, lol), look down and check the plane. All is well on flat earth.

      Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Big Black, ranch foreman, had to go barkety bark at the woodpecker, now he gone, done fly away home. Woodpecker as big as a small chicken. He better watch for hawks, lol, always something, aint it?

      to tie this in with Ben’s article, I still believe like Dennis said last night, we have to do it ourselves, there is no rescue coming. Veterans Cannabis Camp and Plantation. Dedicated to the original hempsters, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington. Hemp farmers.

      i bet if you put a suicidal vet in cannabis narcosis (like they used in veterinary practice to put horses to sleep for operations), keep the vet in that state for 3 days, when they wake up, they will be a new person. that’s what Dave Triplett did when he had lung cancer, he had his family take care of him for a month, he stayed in essentially “cannabis narcosis” and when the month was over, stage 4 lung cancer was gone.

      Black Attack wants his pork chop; my coffee is empty; pipe needs tobacco. (yes, tobacco is another big lie. its “tobacco Products” with additives and fake tobacco that cause problems, not real tobacco, it’s good for you, like everyone knew forever.)

      Have a lovely and blessed day. I will try to keep up on convo better next time.

      /s/ Engelbert Endrass

    • @cj – Well cj, hmmm, I don’t know what to tell you. Usually if the food is good, people stay away. Most of been because you labeled the meat ball Chukra [is spelling correct]. They must of thought it was something else. Well, they could of asked?

      Reminds me of the time that one of my parents best friend came home from Korea with his new bride [true story]. Ahead of time, my mom asked what type of meat would his new wife want to eat. She liked pork. My father did the meat shopping from the Amish. So he bought very thick porkchops.

      They came over and she asked what type of meat was on the large platter. My father told her baby elephant ears. She told her husband to go to the car and get her satchel. She opened it up, and put her meal on the table. She wouldn’t eat the meat. Rice balls with seaweed. And, my father wouldn’t eat the seaweed.

      I was about 12 years old and I was into leather and unique jackets. So my mom asked them to get me one of those Korean jackets with the nice stitching of an animal on the back of the jacket. It was very colorful, and I was the only kid in school wearing Asian clothing. Did I get the smurky looks.

      • @ANutterVet: lol, Okay, I will clear this up Chukar is a game bird, same as a pheasant, or a turkey. Chukar balls are the breast of the Chukar, cut into small pieces and breaded and fried. We don’t here on Ben’s blog go around chukaring other peoples balls about. lol

      • @cj – I’ve studied gemstones for about 15 years. I guess a Layman Gemologist. I couldn’t see paying for a test when I could learn this on my own. The reason that I asked, is because I have some loose gems, Sterling Silver rings, and one 14 and one 18 kt. gold rings. The gems have never been set in a ring, and the rings have never been worn. They are all in my jewelry canvas bag. I’m not into anymore as I use to be.

        Or, if she does like gemstones, many people don’t know what to look for when buying certain stones.

      • @ANutterVet: I see, well, like any woman she likes her jewlery, but has all she wants. I stopped buying long ago. It no longer interests her as well. I guess we just grow out of all that stuff eventually.

      • @cj – I hear you. You never know. When I purchased the items they weren’t from the average stock of lots. Some of the items I waited for months until the right quality was available. Thought I’d just ask. I’ve come across some woman who have many jewelry boxes filled with all sorts of things. Never satisfied. A keep up with the Jones type. I have a friends wife that is like that with another item. If you get something and she likes it, she’ll get one that’s better and sort of rub it into your face. Know what I mean?

      • @ANutterVet: Yes, I hear ya, I try to stay far away from people like that. They have no clue what is important in llife.

      • @cj – I know, they have no glue, I mean clue. They always try to stick it to some one so that they look better than every one else. I don’t hang around with them. Wait, they don’t hang around with me. I forgot which sentence makes me look like I’m the one that’s ok.

      • @ANutterVet: I put the kitchen in in Mile Ditka’s restaraunt, he gave me an autographed menu for a woman we know, she is one of those kind of people. She never once acknowledged that she even recieved the gift from us in the mail. We asked about a year later about it. She says “oh yes I got it” not a thank you or nothing, and she was like a fanatical Bears fan back when they won the superbowl with the fridge and all those guys. No good deed goes unpunished.

      • Woooo, look around you, they are all around you. In Hawaii, they refer to the invisible as menehunes [men-e-hu-knees]. You can’t see them but they are there. I just said that. Oh well, I’m leaving it in my post. Did you get your system running?

  42. @ANutterVet: Oh hell no, you won’t catch me eating those. I don’t care how much you can win in a mountain oyster eatting contest.

    • @cj – In Hawaii they eat raw sea urchins. They eat the reproductive organ part of this shellfish. Its most likely the only raw food that I don’t like. Its too salty. Hawaiians love it though.

      • @cj – Oh I forgot, I think I told you about the sea urchins. Sorry for repeating my self, its the meds. No crashing on my end, only that my bottom task bar is messed up. I still need to contact MS to have them remove some lines from the config sys. I’m backed up in doing chores as well.

  43. @cj – Strange things have been going on. Double posts, double email notifications, late email notifications, etc..

      • @cj, @ANutterVet, doing good, i did get some sleep last night. I was exhausted. Trying to read posts and get caught up with everyone. Lol.

  44. @cj – Dam, we have to start our bromancing relationship all over again. Mr. Trumpheter the Shooter, where’s Mr. Putinosky at?

  45. @cj – I didn’t see where Timothy Ramos posted a reply? I hope that he lets us know about that trial. Later, may be I’ll check a trial database to see what may be happening in the research of pain management. I know that many docs are into Clinical Behavor Therapy [CBT]. I hope one day that some bright biochemist or something, would develop a medication that eliminates or blocks the pathway where your body demands to have certain medications. Sort of a weaning off medication that blocks neurotransmitters or something.

    • @ANutterVeteran, they are close to some of that pharmaceutical technology with those, inhibitors, uptakes and blockers on neutransmitters with anti depressants. I have read a little about that. It is hard to understand those medicines. You know more than i do about that stuff.

      • @Ex va – Those antidepressants usually come with some strong side effects. Of course, that’s what the VA heavily pushes off to us. I’m also concerned about the FDA approving drugs too soon. And then, there could be some good meds that are new too. My wife has always wanted me to go back to school and obtain more degrees in order to get funding for doing research. I get caught up in trying to recover from my ailments, therefore its hard for me to focus like I use too.

        Thank you VA for discussing this matter with me. Without you, I would’ve never known that I was going through these types of issues. NOTTTTTTTTTTT

  46. @Ex va – Glad you got some sleep. We’ve been online for over 2 hours already. Try putting your posts at the bottom of the page. Our posts have been rising more to the top instead of following in sequence down at the bottom. If we do this, hopefully we won’t have to move up and down to find out where the posts are.

    Ex va, earlier under this article, I posted some vitamin databases too. You may want to go back and check them out. I think I also tagged them with the @ sign so you should’ve received them.

    • @ANutterVet, thank you i appreciate the information and i have been doing some reading about insomnia. Trying to understand what is going on with all these health issues. Thank for the databases posts.

    • @ANutterVet: I am having a hard time keeping up with everying tonight. I will be right back I gotta take someting for this heartburn.

    • @ANutterVet,@cj, sometimes i do have a problem following the posts too. I have to reread it and sometimes i can’t get it to post at the bottom for some strange reason. You doing ok ANutterVet?

      • @ANutterVet, do you think they could make medications to stop addiction issues that would stop the brain from wanting these chemicals? I think that would be an excellent idea as long as their is no bad side effects and not hurt the patient.

      • @Ex va, @cj – That’s exactly what I was referring too. Who ever develops a medication that limits the brain, body, and organs from experiencing the effects of weaning off of pain medications, is going to filthy rich. But most importantly, if it is successful, many Veterans and the public will not have to suffer when coming off these types of medications. I think a big problem would be in finding a chemical that can attach to a receptor site that blocks out the responses [the need] for the body to have more medicine.

      • @Ex va – Being that I’m part Cherokee, Polish, German, Irish, and English descent, I’m able to multitask. At the moment, I’m having a triple discussion; wife, K9, you folks, plus talking to myself. How’s that for communicating.

      • @ANutterVet, sounds like you got a lot of bases covered. Good Job! Keep up the good work. LOL!! Great communicator skills brother!!!!

      • @cj, @Ex va – Welcome back to the shack. What did you take for the heart burn? We may have to consider trying to change our bodies pH and make it more alkaline.

  47. @cj, @Ex va – Shootz, its almost quarter to 2 in the morning. Almost 3 hours. And, wife is going to sleep. And, the dog follows. @Ex va, and, the neighbors are no longer at their window. They were peeping through my windows earlier, and cj gave me a finger to give to them and the VA.

    • [email protected]

      failed in one thirds. That is what they admit to

  48. @cj – Good, post it at your convenience. I don’t want you to hurry up in refining the artwork. If you do it too fast, knowing you and if you do it late at night or you have a neurological response, you’ll have the wrong finger sticking up instead of the middle one. Take your time.

    • @cj, your an artist, and the way you can express yourself with this media is simply beautiful!!!!!!!!! ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great Job!!!!!!!!!! You are really cracking me up!!!!!!!!!

      • @Ex va,@ANutterVet,@Disgruntled Veteran; Is this one hawiian?

        _+88_
        _+880_
        _++88_
        _++88_
        __+880_________________________++_
        __+888________________________+88_
        __++880______________________+88_
        __++888_____+++88__________+++8_
        __++8888__+++8880++88____+++88_
        __+++8888+++8880++8888__++888_
        ___++888++8888+++888888++888_
        ___++88++8888++8888888++888_
        ___++++++888888888888888888_
        ____++++++88888888888888888_
        ____++++++++000888888888888_
        _____+++++++000088888888888_
        ______+++++++00088888888888_
        _______+++++++088888888888_
        _______+++++++088888888888_
        ________+++++++8888888888_
        ________+++++++0088888888_
        ________++++++0088888888_
        ________+++++0008888888_
        ________#############_

      • @cj – Hawaiian is the thumb and little finger that is up. This looks like the index and little finger? Does it need adjusting or do I need adjusting in my head?

    • @cj, @Ex va- I just had to take more meds to get some relief. There is a weird taste when I put these pills into my mouth. Sometimes, I feel like a spark or something goes off when the pill hits my saliva. May be I’m a freak, and there is some magical powers in my spit. Phuff . . . duck, splat. Watch out, Nutters getting a little pissed off and shooting large wodds of mucus. Splat, yeah, right on Shulkins office window. I’m getting off on my drama.

  49. …………./´¯/)………….(\¯`\
    …………/….//…………..\\….\
    ………../….//…………….\\….\
    …../´¯/…./´¯\…………./¯`\….\¯`\..
    .././…/…./…./.|_……_|.\….\….\…\.\..
    (.(….(….(…./.)..)….(..(.\….)….)…..).)
    .\…………….\/…/….\…\/……………./
    ..\…………….. /……..\………………/
    ….\…………..(…………)…………../
    ……\………….\………../…………./

  50. @cj, @Ex va – Dam neighbors got binoculars, turned their lights out and looking this way. I’ve had enough of this dam shit. I’m going to drop my dam underwear, and press my butt cheeks on my window. Then I’ll take my CREE lights and put them all on SOS flash. These neighbors got a hell of a nerve. Dam. Wife is pissed off too. Now, that my wife and I are yelling, the dog is barking. Now that the dog is barking, the fleas are jumping. Now, that the fleas are jumping, I’m itching all over and getting bitten.

      • @cj – Only joking. Now you fell for it. I was trying to get Ex va all caught up in some of my bull shit and get him all fired up for nothing. In this way he may get a chuckle to help relief his pain. Remember when he fell for one of my ranting jokes just recently? LMAO

      • @cj, @Ex va – I like to reign in the memories sometimes. Ex va took the bait hard that night didn’t he? After I read his post, I was laughing so much that it woke my wife up and she wanted to know who I was talking too. This type of stuff is free. I love it.

      • @cj – I do have some neighbors that need some hot shot. I’ll send you pictures and their addresses.

  51. @cj – Do you know where Ex va went? Its been about 25 minutes with no movement. Do you think he feel asleep at his iPad?

    • ┈┈┈┈┈┈┈┈┈┈┈?????????????
      ┈┈╱▔▔▔▔▔╲┈┈┈??????????
      ┈╱┈┈╱▔╲╲╲▏┈┈┈?????┈
      ╱┈┈╱━╱▔▔▔▔▔╲━╮┈┈
      ▏┈▕┃▕╱▔╲╱▔╲▕╮┃┈┈
      ▏┈▕╰━▏▊▕▕▋▕▕━╯┈┈
      ╲┈┈╲╱▔╭╮▔▔┳╲╲┈┈┈
      ┈╲┈┈▏╭━━━━╯▕▕┈┈┈
      ┈┈╲┈╲▂▂▂▂▂▂╱╱┈┈┈
      ┈┈┈┈▏┊┈┈┈┈┊┈┈┈╲┈
      ┈┈┈┈▏┊┈┈┈┈┊▕╲┈┈╲
      ┈╱▔╲▏┊┈┈┈┈┊▕╱▔╲▕
      ┈▏┈┈┈╰┈┈┈┈╯┈┈┈▕▕
      ┈╲┈┈┈╲┈┈┈┈╱┈┈┈╱┈╲
      ┈┈╲┈┈▕▔▔▔▔▏┈┈╱╲╲╲▏
      ┈╱▔┈┈▕┈┈┈┈▏┈┈▔╲▔▔
      ┈╲▂▂▂╱┈┈┈┈╲▂▂▂╱┈
      This guy works at a VA near you.

      • @Ex va – Is this a millipede? Its stretched out. I thought it was a VA’s employee head that was stretched horizontally.

      • @cj, is he the guy that greets you and gives you the wrong directions to the clinic they just moved?????

      • @ANutterVet,@Ex va: Guys, I am sorry I haven’t been very social tonight. It is late and I have an early appointment with my pivate pcp to get tapering schedule for clonazepam. You guys have a great night, and God Bless you all and your families. Goodnight.

    • @cj,@ANutterVet, i saw a friend last week i knew in gradeschool and they had all these pictures of kids we went to school with. I couldn’t remember half their names. I had to ask who is this, when was this. I felt bad, i couldn’t remember hardly any of these kids. My memory is so bad. I am trying to work on it.

      • @cj – Is this picture supposed to be blurry? Or is it me? @Ex va, you’re worse off than me, and I’m older than you? I need to count my blessings even more. You need to go back to the doctors Ex va and tell them this. You got me really concerned about your physical health. Something don’t sound right here.

      • @ANutterVet, i think its anxiety and my other disorders. It comes and goes. Not consistent, so that is what they blame it on. I will tell them again. I had MRI on brain and other testing showed nothing abnormal. They blame it on disorders, the confusion and memory loss. ANutterVet, are you getting tired? Maybe blurry because you have been looking at the screen for so long?

      • @Ex va – I’m only razzing you. I thought you’d catch it, but that’s ok. Hey, for what your going through, you’re doing better than some other individuals that I know. Some of them can’t even get on the pc and type. I’m just trying to get you fired up, and then get you to laugh it off.

        @cj- Drive safely. Thanks for the posts tonight. Get some rest bro. Chat with you later.

      • @ANutterVet, i appreciate you trying to get me laughing and making me laugh. We need it. 🙂 i have had to teach myself to read again and type too. I do feel bad for those who struggle with neuro problems. It sucks. PTSD can give you amnesia. It sucks. I wish they knew more about the brain.

      • @Ex va – I hear you Brother. I wish there were 100% cures for all these ailments that we have to face and deal with. One day, one blessed day. Its on the horizon. In due time.

        Ex va, I’m going to go to sleep. Get some well deserved rest. And, when I hear that you’ve laughed a bit, it makes me feel good. Goodnight and God bless you and your family.

    • @Ex va @cj – Flash backs from that time. I just turned 17, I was a kid. I still smoked back then. Before we were swore in, they let us smoke, drink sodas, and gossip for about 30 minutes. Then right after we were swore in, a demanding voice yells, “alright, put out those smokes, put your soda cans in the trash, and straighten up these tables and chairs. Now, make a double row and line up straight.” The gravel commands came a rolling through like a thunder storm.

      All the while, @cj and his wife sat on their porch, drinking their fancy coffee. You there cj? Do you remember boot camp well. Or do you keep it a blur?

      • @ANutterVet: Okay I will stay and answer this one. Yes I remember boot camp like it was yesterday. Ft Sill OK.
        I remember thinking boy scouts was harder than this. Then all hell broke lose lol. Drop give me 20, What did you say? In your face. I remember they had one guy stand in front of the mess hall sign and yell “SIGN, I WILL NOT TALK IN THE MESS HALL LINE” over and over again. Of course I thought that was funny so i got the Drop give me 20 again. Then there was the day we had a class out in the field, laying on the ground as the instructor went through some artillery shit. I felt a lil someting on my hand and brushes it off, felt it again, this time I looked down and it was a fucking tarantula of all fucking things, I threw my hand out and said “what the fuck?” and it landed on this other guys chest and he freaked the fuck out, hopping around yelling “get it off git it off” He finally brushed it off and the drill seagent pushed it along with a stick and said to us “some tough soldiers your gonna make” lol

      • @cj – If I had one of those get on me, I wouldn’t have to take sennosides to go #2. I never liked those spiders. I don’t care for spiders or snakes. I’d rather be in Hawaiian waters with sharks than to have a spider on me or to pick up a dam snake. Seen too many documentaries. When I was growing though, my poops would let me have any animal that was legal. I had alligators that my mom would fly off the handle, get pissed off. I use to leave the gators in the bathtub. My dad was in the process of building me an area in the wreck room with a heated pond. Unfortunately, he passed on. Dam, way to young my father was. Every day think of him. I miss him. Phewww . . . stressful.

        Well my friends, I’m going to hit the hay [last time I spelt it hey]. God bless each of you and your families as well. CJ, I hope you have a good PCP appt. tomorrow. And, Ex va, I hope you have a pleasant nights sleep. And, ANutterVet, I hope you can have a really nice sized poo to help relieve the bloated feeling. Take care Brothers. Goodnight.

      • @Ex va – Please shut the door. Where’s the air freshener? Grrr . . . plop, plop. The can is empty. You people need to burn up incense when your smoking that shit. Stop using up my air freshener. Good night Ex va.

  52. @ANutterVet,@Ex va: Guys, I am sorry I haven’t been very social tonight. It is late and I have an early appointment with my pivate pcp to get tapering schedule for clonazepam. You guys have a great night, and God Bless you all and your families. Goodnight.

    repost from above to the right place…………..

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