VA Psychiatrist Tells Gun Owner To ‘Off’ Himself

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VA psychiatrist

Benjamin KrauseOn Facebook, one VA psychiatrist told one gun owner that he should “off” himself after the two could not come to an agreement on the Second Amendment.

About gun control, one Facebook user wrote, “I am all for gun control. If there is a gun in the room, I want to be in control of it.”

To this, VA psychiatrist Gregg Gorton retorted, “off yourself, please”.

[NOTE: Photo above is an actor depicting suicide for illustration purposes and not a suicidal veteran.]

Participants in the Facebook forum later realized a VA psychiatrist at the Philadelphia Veterans Affairs Medical Center made the offensive statement.

The matter escalated into the press and was reported on by Military Times and other media outlets. One local NBC station investigated the matter further and learned the psychiatrist was also a professor at the University of Pennsylvania.

Following the pro-suicide outburst, Gorton now says he made a mistake:

“It’s just one of those moments you’d rather take back in your life,” Gordon told Associated Press. “I’ve worked 30 years to treat psychiatric patients. I teach about suicide prevention… That’s not me.”

A Veterans Affairs spokesperson later commented, “The post was totally inappropriate and does not convey our commitment to veterans.”

Elsewhere in Philadelphia, VA employees are under the hatchet following reckless handling of the benefits claims backlog. Philadelphia VA is home to numerous fraudulent schemes perpetrated by VA employees against veterans including altering claims, disappearing records, and mandatory séances.

I don’t want to make more of this than is there is, but let’s hope Dr. Gorton seriously reconsiders his comments.

Source: https://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/07/29/totally-inappropriate-facebook-comment-aimed-at-gun-owner-could-land-va-psychiatrist-in-big-trouble/

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59 Comments

  1. My opinion is that an ethical complaint should be filed at the minimum. Onto the decision to transfer the money, is that they should have denied it because technically all veterans would be able to use the Choice Card because they would have been automatically qualified based on no one there to schedule the appointment. That scare alone would have put some fear into them. Congress is weak!

    • Corpsmanup, I was under the impression NO decision had been made on giving VA the monies yet. I have heard nothing yet. If VA was given the monies, when was it?

      As far as this shrink goes, I myself have gotten into “heated debates” with “liberal idiots” before. It seems they have absolutely no clue as to why the “Founding Fathers” included the “2nd Amendment”!
      “Gun Ownership”, was and is the “duty” of every American Citizen. I make the (my) “argument” this way.
      Then, as now, it is the duty of every citizen to defend this great nation.
      Then, as now, when faced with any “threat from within”, we are “duty bound” to defend the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It even says it when you took your “Oath” when joining the military.
      The 2nd Amendment says we are to “maintain a Well Regulated Militia”! I could go on. Only I believe all understand my position on this.
      Ben references a veteran who “ended his life” because of a misdiagnosis of cancer from a physician at the Phoenix VA. And the wife has filed a suit. His Blog says May, but it could have been earlier.
      It reminded me of an incident here at the Lake Baldwin (Orlando, Florida) VA early last year (2014)! A “former Marine”, after seeing a physician there, went to his vehicle, took out a weapon and committed suicide.
      I have written about this incident before on here. I also told that when McD and his cronies came here late last year. The Director stated, “That never happened!” McD even stated that it didn’t happen on TV. Later, a few months later, he corrected his statement, (Another “Misspoke” Word by him), and said it did happen!
      Now, that being said, just how many of the 22 veteran suicides each day are being done because of some incompetent physician at VA’s?
      Right now my stress level is high. Because of the “topic for today”!

      • I couldn’t agree with you more. It is the same reason i think many civilians are unappreciative of military service.
        There are those who view veterans as second class citizens because they think that if many people who served, are not “college educated” they are not as saavy as the so called elite with titles behind their name.
        Many of those who protested during war use it as an excuse not to go. It is funny how these protesters are now your elected officials in some capacity or advocating for veterans because of “stock” in their big companies or foundations and have an excuse why they did not serve..

        The tactic of subliminal messaging and images of suicide by VA officials , to me is considered “patient abuse” and it does not necesaarily have to be your patient as a professional to violate the Hippocratic Oath.

        Congress just needs to do their job and impeach these officials under the law of the land.

        It is a shame when you have people in an uproar over the killing of an animal, but ignore the issues of veterans dying.

        Onto the bill, it was passed in the house (H.R. 1994) but that Corrine Brown needs to go! over there looking like HR Puff N Stuff and has no articulation skills to hold a position in office!

        The 2nd Amendment is the 2nd Amendment! Amen!

      • Corpsmanup, thanks for the info on the bill.
        Corrine Brown is not in my district. If she were, trust me, I would never had voted for in the first place. She ran in a district that is primarily “African American”! That’s why she got elected.
        I agree, she has no skills which would, in any way have gotten her elected in other parts of the country. How some of these “elected officials” got into office boggles my mind….
        Like I have said, the “officials” in my district do not support veterans. Therefore I, and my wife, will NOT vote for any of them!!!!
        My wife will be ‘tweeting’ her discust of Rubio and Miller. Many will, or should, do the same!

  2. “[Following the pro-suicide outburst, Gorton now says he made a mistake:

    “It’s just one of those moments you’d rather take back in your life,” Gordon told Associated Press. “I’ve worked 30 years to treat psychiatric patients. I teach about suicide prevention… That’s not me.”

    A Veterans Affairs spokesperson later commented, “The post was totally inappropriate and does not convey our commitment to veterans.”]”

    So, VA Psychiatrist “Misspoke”, is this the new lie of an excuse these so-called professionals are using these days since Sec. McDonald seemingly got away with it more than once thus far?
    What IF *any Veteran* actually committed suicide based on reading that remark, finally throwing-in-the-towel-of-hope, realizing or coming to conclusion the VA simply does not care whether they live or die? Would this VA Psychiatrist then be up on charges for a degree of Manslaughter?
    Has ANYONE contacted the APA (American Psychological Association) to not only report this ASS but also check on Dr. Gordon’s credentials and if he is even legal to be practicing or practicing in PA or USA? It would be worth reporting this UNETHICAL and ILLEGAL remark he made.
    This is a classic example of how poor just the VA Psych Dept. is…THAT is the REAL “Mouth of Madness”, and a, sure MANY Vets have several horror stories to support this, as I do as well.
    This Dr. Gordon should have his license revoked, at the VERY LEAST!!!! More news outlets, get the word out because in the Civilian World, THAT COMMENT would hang Dr. Gordon by his own Malpractice Insurance. Speaking of which, since this comment shows the lack of integrity of Dr. Gordon, it’s more than likely NOT his first time making such egregious comments and screwing with Vets. He should be nowhere near Vets with that comment being made.

  3. OH…Ben, realizing your choice of “artwork/picture” today IS an “actor” by your own disclosure; it’s still something I just want to state that’s perhaps a bit over the top and disturbing…but it definitely gets the point across…disturbing all the same. It definitely placed today’s article in BOLD in my mind and enraged me that a VA Psychiatrist would not have the SMARTS to use the very “mental filters” their Profession actually touts and tries to convey to people when posting to social media or anywhere, for that matter. This is SO unprofessional and alarming that this is a classic example of WHY the VA needs a massive enema. There, I said it again!
    Let’s collectively ensure this Dr. Gordon has charges against him…he really can lose his APA Accreditation and his License to Practice…and if he is one of the many foreigner Dr.’s that the VA has completely waived all Residency Requirements, then he needs to go regardless…WHY would a Psych Dr. of all people say such a thing?
    I hope you all realize this goes WAY BEYOND “bullying” and there’s laws in-place against this from many areas…but the APA is the place to start I think as well as VA OIG.

    The “I must have MISSPOKE” excuse does not even remotely fly here. Those words may have been JUST the evil alchemy that made a Veteran feel no other way to deal…this has pissed me off royally and just emphasizes and validates why I use Medicare for ALL my Medical and Civilian Medical Professionals. I realize not everyone has this choice.

  4. This psychiatrist is treating veterans? His butt needs to go yesterday. If he doesn’t quit, or is fired, by tomorrow, it will undermine the VA MH care system wide.

    Of course, he will be put on paid administrative leave for who knows how long. Then quietly he will be at another VA, or allowed to retire.

    This should be a national story to show what vets have to put up with. Can you imagine if you said to a VA doctor, “please, to go off themself?” At the very minimum, you would be flagged in a New York minute.

  5. What do I think? I think that it sure would be nice if the VA hired people who ACTUALLY like vets. Most “providers” are the UN-hirable of society, so we’re stuck with these losers. They don’t like dealing with the actual work that is required to treat our military, vets, and their families, so what do they do? Instead of dealing with the vets on an individual basis, they are collective place into classifications or groups.

    If a medical provider has to “label” you to feel comfortable enough to deal with you, that person doesn’t want the chance to get to know the veteran and is nothing more than a lazy person working for a check.

    Dear Vets:
    Next time some liberal loser from the VA asks you about your firearms, just answer them this:

    “I’m here for medical treatment, not a F***** gun inspection. Next question.”

    It really IS that simple!

    #FireALLVetHatersNow

    • Welcome aboard Sonia. Do you, or a family member, or a friend use VA. Seems you have ‘first hand info’ concerning this, and other issues of VA incompetence.
      Once when I saw a psychologist at the VA at Lake Baldwin (Orlando) Florida. I found she HAD been a “Vietnam War Protestor”! She admitted it. I never saw that person again. My decision, not hers. Later I found out she had “Protested against veterans” in the late sixties and early seventies. Don’t y’all believe that person should NOT have been hired by VA? Doesn’t VA do a backround check on individuals who want to work for them? If something like this popped up. Her application should have been rejected immediately!
      Question to y’all, don’t you believe an in deapth media investigation into “Why” so many veterans (22 each day) are committing suicide? (I would bet MANY other issues would come to light as well.)
      In my opinion, local and national media outlets SHOULD BE HITTING THIS, (and others) ISSUE HARD!
      I believe a percentage, (?), of those 22 veterans suicide each day are due to statements made by VA employees. Case in point, today’s blog. This could have turned out worse. That VA shrink should have been shown the door, as soon as the story hit the media. Or when VA was notified of it!
      Also, one of the blog’s Ben references, about the vet who was misdiagnosed with cancer,and took his life in Phoenix Arizona.
      AND, that Former Marine who saw a physician at Lake Baldwin last year. The one McDonald was told by the director “it didn’t happen!” Then having to retract his statement about a month or so later. What or who caused that Former Marine to do what he did?Why didn’t someone investigate that? McDonald should have contacted that director and told him to “pack your bags, your fired!”
      I will bet any and all on here, or anywhere, some of the veterans (22 per day) who commit suicide, did so, and will continue to do so, because of VA incompetence…. and it doesn’t have to have been because of a mental health (non)professional. It could, as was referenced by Ben, another department of VA. Ex; neurology, primary care or pain management or ????????
      Get the point?

      • I don’t believe that this veteran protester should not work for the VA because she protested in the 60s and 70s, unless she still maintains the same belief system and protested against veterans in the war. There are tens of thousands of people who protested in the 60s and 70s, Who have said that that was a mistake in their lives and regret doing so. Especially those who made derogatory comments against our returning Vietnam Veterans.

      • To tim042,
        That “protester” neither apologized nor did she say explain why she protested.
        I have met only a few since my final tour in Nam. I usually just walked away, if possible.
        With this person I asked for a different physician and was told “…it was [her] or nothing!” How’s that for professionalism..

  6. PeopLe who cares! Sound like a bunch of babies do you really expect the va to. Care about you? I’m sure we all are their “off. Work” jokes. Just get a clue.

  7. I had quit going to the VA because the pysch Dr told me there was nothing more she could do for me… How encouraging was that? Now after two years I have to go back, almost against my will just so I can file for IU.

    • I was told by a “DR.” by the name of Brian Richardson, “You have no right’s!” Then he caused me to loose my employment and the rest of the failed VA doctors and other supposed to be medical people are not much better than bigots, racist and enjoy fucking over Veterans! They insist or “Bob” does that it will change and get better well “Bob” it isn’t getting better and I find that it is a piss poor medical system and dental system that keeps the mortician’s busy and the body bag business thriving! FTVA!

  8. To, Corpsmanup, namnibor and all others on here today.
    The topic today is about a “liberal VA psychiatrist” who stated, “Go Off Yourself” to a “weapons activist”. Someone who believes in the “Second Amendment of our Constitution” evidently.

    Now, not only did every person who joined the military say those words “to protect and defend the Constitution and Bill of Rights”! upon entry.
    But, civilians who NEVER served fail to understand the following. That is: They too as citizens are, and have the responsibility, too ALSO follow the Constitution. That is NOT a “right”. It is a “solemn obligation” or “duty” of every citizen. There are NO excuses or reasons one can give to deny this fact or their obligation. They, in cases of emergencies, are duty bound by the Constitution to take up arms against anyone who wishes to do harm against the United State of America!!!
    Even that VA psychiatrist, I believe, is unaware of his “Responsibilities” when it comes to this issue.

  9. Some of you mentioned filing ethics complaints against Dr. Gregg Gorton. If you choose to do this… The first step there is to figure out what state he is licensed in.

    As chance would have it, I just received a FOIA back of all medical healthcare providers in VA broken down by VISN that includes certifications and state licensure.

    Here is Dr. Gorton’s data:

    Gregg Gorton, MD FIELD: Mental/Behavioral Health
    BOARD CERTIFICATION: “Psychiatry Addiction Psychiatry”
    DEGREE: MD, TUFTS UNIV SCHOOL OF MEDICINE
    LICENSED IN: Pennsylvania
    PROVIDER TYPE: Physician GENDER: Male
    WORKPLACE LOCATION: Philadelphia VA Medical Center
    3900 Woodland Avenue
    Philadelphia, PA 19104
    PHONE NUMBER: 800-949-1001
    VISN #4

    Also, last year Gorton made $180,000 from VA. It is possible that he made more money from his joint appointment at University of Pennsylvania along with other ancillary arrangements.

  10. This is exactly the type of employee the VA needs the will and the authority to terminate immediately. Let him go back to his ultra-liberal Ivy League school and tell all the students that they should kill themselves if the own guns. The first couple of suicides there would probably earn him tenure.

  11. No harm, no foul. An exchange on FB is not a doctor patient setting, no expectation of privacy. I know he regrets making the comment, but he IS human after all. He was apparently responding to a political issue as a citizen, and not in his capacity as a doctor. Now if this, or any, psychiatrist spoke those words during a counseling session then I would have a different reaction. But in this case, no damage done that I can see. Of course that will not keep some people from crying that he be fired or citing it as evidence that the entire VA does not care about us veterans.

    • Psychiatrists and numerous other medical specialties are held to a higher standard under their licensure. Unethical behavior in a public forum advocating for suicide my not be illegal, but it is possibly unethical. For that reason, he may be held accountable per his licensure.

    • You obviously do not know how upsetting this is for veterans who may have PTSD or othe MH issues. No harm, no foul? What if he is treating a vet who is suicidal and the vet sees this exchange? He has destroyed his credibility and more than likely crossed a line. People have been fired for their interactions on social media for a lot less. You wanna bet this is not going to be a big deal?

      • Right-on. People now trying to get jobs in their professions more and more DO have their ‘social media’ scrutinized because NO company wants to be the object of a lawsuit because of a loose-lipped cannon employee on social media…and plenty of people have been FIRED because of their lack of “mental filters” on social media and of ANYONE, even a last in their class Psychiatrist should know what “mental filters” are and when that is compromised, so is the credibility of that person.

        This WILL make it to the Main Stream News. Dr. Gorton will probably be placed on paid administrative leave, quietly moved to head of VA suicide prevention programs…that’s the pickle we find ourselves in these days…people are not using their God-given noodles. (brains) (mental filters) (commonsense) (ethics)

    • @ericman1949–“No harm, no foul”

      I think you should understand that mental health professionals PREACH using “FILTERS on that which you say/write on Social Media, as words definitely can carry influence and power”…it’s actually a great analogy to say then, is it okay then for the Addiction/Recovery Dr. to be a JUNKIE and on his off-office-hours to be on Social Media (that has his credentials listed AS working for VA AND as a Psychiatrist) posting to people to go out and “roll your own” and “drink-up”? NO!
      It’s a really BIG THING called ***INTEGRITY***, and with no accountability there can be no integrity, so YES, there’s a serious problem at the VA.
      You can defend the VA all you want but how exactly is that helping Veterans being harmed by the VA?
      We ALL want a great VA we can ALL be proud of. We are not a collective of Veterans that only have it in for the VA and wish it to fail…quite the contrary!

      Again, ericman1949, you come across as a defensive and probable VA Employee and if not, your mindset needs to be checked because it’s as ignorant and dangerous as these “bad apples” at the VA that makes the whole system rot.

      Social Media comes with responsibility, regardless of what you do or do not do in life. Sometimes it only takes an “implication” to be charged with the “crime”. This VA Psych. is obviously SO narcissistic that he did not see any issue with his comment given his profession…THAT is freaking scary.

      Also, look-up the ramifications of “bullying on social media and how it’s defined”…the ramifications can indeed be litigious. No mental filters, no place for them around Veterans or ANY sentient being.

      • Does anyone here remember the 2 or 3 teenagers here in Brevard County, Florida who “bullied” another 13 or 14 year old teen. She climbed a water tower, AND JUMPED TO HER DEATH! The bullies were arrested. Later they were let go. Because a “deal” had been made.
        There have been many other such reports about this happening to others.
        Therefore, again, I ask all on here. How would you like it if something like thid happened to someone you know?
        It’s not a happy time for the families of the victims! That’s a FUCKIN fact……

  12. On what grounds is there to file an ethical complaint, much less fire this man? You dont have to agree with conduct outside of work! Your license applies to your practice of medicine (psychiartry) only. Can someone provide evidence of a doctor-patient relationship here?! It facebook, folks. Hardly the practice of medicine.

    • Again, federally employed psychiatrists and numerous other medical specialties are held to a higher standard under their licensure including some conduct in public forums. Unethical behavior in a public forum advocating for suicide my not be illegal, but it is possibly unethical. For that reason, he may be held accountable per his licensure.

      • Mr Krause:

        The VA didn’t hold accountable the dentist at the Dayton Dental clinic even though their own report said he was responsible for massive exposure of veterans to bloodborne pathogens for 8 years and I sent a letter with 200 signatures from the doctors and nurses I work with condemning their actions.

        So do you really think they’re going to hold somebody accountable for what he said in a forum? Please.

    • This veteran he said this to is a patient of the VA System. That is where the nexus is to his employment. He can say whatever he wants.ethics supercede the law in their particular profession. See rules of conduct under the American Psychological Association. I was a Navy Corpsman and there were strict rules in the Fleet Marine Force when it came to our Marines especially in Force Recon and ANGLICO , have to meet the standard and tradition that has always been in place with those units The DOC/ Marine brotherhood.. A culture of good health, kick ass and Semper Fidelity. Suicide is a serious issue with those who have been on Direct Action missions and these CQB operations in which the opposing forces have put civilian lives at risk. Far from a facebook issue Sir! I respect your opinion though.

  13. In my opinion, this shows the same kind of callous disregard that we saw in the Robin Paul case. This doctor should not be given a second chance. IMHO, Gorton’s remark would be beyond the pale for a layman. The fact that he did it with an online account where he identifies himself as a psychiatrist just shows his arrogance and ignorance.

    Regardless of whatever context Gorton tried to place on his remark during spin control, this is a bell that can’t be unrung. There is no way to be sure Gorton will not have a similar lapse in judgement while in session with one of our fellow veterans (if it has not already happened).

    Don’t civil service employees take an oath to support and defend the Constitution? Can it be argued that Gorton violated that oath by suggesting that someone exercising their rights to free speech and bear arms do harm to themselves? What is the Philadephia VAMC doing to keep Gorton away from patients until this whole thing is sorted out?

    • usedtoliveinindy,
      You put down what I was thinking. The only thing that came to my mind was two words: Robin Paul.
      This guy is the same as her, he is to help veterans and teaches about suicide. He should be fired. He is just like her, he said something that he most likely has said before but this time he got caught. He should be fired yesterday. We don’t need anymore VA employees like this. We have enough of them now so there is no need to let him work there.
      f8f

      • Took the words from my brain…Robin Paul and her same freaking field…only a fine line separates the Psychiatrist and Psychologist….the one that can prescribe is more apt to have the “God Syndrome”, thinking they are beyond wrong because they think they could not possibly do any harm by just “words posted”…of ANY profession, Psychiatrists should know that WORDS can be like bullets and actually more apt to do long term extenuating harm.
        This VA Psych Dr. Gorton should humble themselves and go work for the Peace Core in a sub-third world country for a few years just to get a reality check.
        Arrogance and thinking one is not responsible for what they say because, “it’s just social media”, have not been following the last 4 years National News apparently.

        There have been a number of suicides by individuals “cyber-bullied”…one such was a recent transgender older teen that the parents would have performed lobotomy in the name of their religion….but they did not have to, the words did it for them…and many more examples…and I have no doubt there’s been a good number of Veterans, many more than EVER made the news, prompted by Social Media posts, the VA itself, being “Flagged” at the VA…someone’s heartless post even say on this blog if someone posted that…it’s just wrong…as in you would NEVER think of shouting FIRE in a crowded movie theater, right? I hope this is conveyed correctly.
        A quote a love of something written by Wm. S. Burroughs, “Language is a virus from outer space”!
        Most of those “beatnik creative types” ended-up proving to be more than prophetic. We should check ourselves with history, often.

        Note: It was -1- Year Ago and -2- days ago that I found my third best friend had taken his own life, finding his body at his apartment doing a wellness check on him after not hearing from him for two weeks. We talked on phone daily. I felt horrible and still do that it took me -2- Weeks before I decided to do a wellness check. He was a Veteran. No Social Media involved…but lack of proper communication was partly at fault that greatly contributed to his apparent total loss of all hope.

        This issue in blog today definitely strikes a personal nerve with me but in a way to try to help this world be a better place for the less fortunate and trampled upon.
        Peace.

  14. Psychiatrists in the va are not the only doctors that harm veterans, a medical doctor hurt me during a examination and after I went to the patient representative and the director’s office who refused to see me the following happened. These I strongly believe we’re initiated by fellow veterans at the orders of management. I was an inpatient for ptsd and after reporting this incident. A fellow veteran placed on a black board, where doctor appointments were written. I had an appointment with a doctor gray, someone put gay clinic, 2 a fellow veteran, young veteran placed a bloody nap sack on top of the clothes, I had just washed, after I reported it, the nap sack went missing. I spoke with fellow veterans about what was happening. They told me that I need to stop reporting what the doctor did or the va could have me killed, stating its happen before. When I was to be discharged and had to wait two weeks to be admitted to the drug and alcohol treatment program, the va told me they wanted me to stay in a homeless shelter for two weeks, when I had a home in another state. I told them I have a home and I’m not homeless. Told them i’m 100 percent service connected and authorized travel and wanted to return to my home and then in two weeks, I will return for admission. I was told you promise to return. I was authorized the travel and worried about being hurt, until I left. Reported this to my case worker and my doctor. They told me I didn’t have to return if I felt my life was in jeopardy and sent me to a different va. This va they sent me to in Topeka Kansas was the best hospital, it was like night and day difference compared to the Sheridan vamc. The staff from the janitor to upper management showed respect for each and every veteran and if the veterans had an issue, they dealt with it immediately. Veterans there were happy and the program was very helpful for the veterans. Great job Topeka vamc psychological department.

  15. I am a wheelchair bound 100% service connected Veteran. But although VA has had its issues, I don’t feel as though we should condemn all VA employees. It should be done on an individual basis, and what those individuals have done, not simply because they work for a semi flaws system. To state that the VA doesn’t hire people who care, is false. I have had my problems in the VA system with individual providers and employees. But I can state that for the most part most of the VA employees I have felt with, whether it be providers, nurses, secretarial, or volunteers, truly care about us Veterans. I have been to approximately 15 different VA hospitals for care, and have had positive experiences most of the time. I also look at my care compared to those of my families and friends with non VA medical insurance plans, and can say that hands-down the VA provides better care, better prosthetic appliances by far, and better medical testIng than any of theirs do. In fact most VA employees are either Veterans themselves or have Veteran family members. So again for me to say that these VA employees we have don’t care about their patients would be ignorant, I believe. I hate to stereotype people in certain positions. I think before you post something, you should truly think about what you’re actually saying. Thank you. Timothy

  16. 07/30/2015

    Dear Benjamin Krause,

    So what is the Law in PA?

    It is against the California Law to suggest this crime—no one ever went to jail [see the article below]—even when I protested in writing. Does the AMA Code of Ethics force this VA individual to resign?

    This is about the time “they” wrapped up Carlos in plastic and threw him in the Lake, right next to the Hospital, for several days just after talking to Karlheinz Halter at the coffee shop—–the Lake that was allocated Millions of Dollars [LA City] for cleanup but never happened [ “the money disappeared”]—this is the same area where the Mugging of Karlheinz Halter took place on Memorial Day in 2005, “Lake Reggie.”

    As we can see life has not changed:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/murder-suicide-snuffs-out-la-family-of-7/
    By CBSNEWS AP January 27, 2009, 1:21 PM
    Murder-Suicide Snuffs Out LA Family Of 7

    This photo obtained Tuesday, Jan. 27, 2009 from Ervin Antonio Lupoe’s Facebook Web page shows their five children, Brittney, center, twin girls Jaszmin and Jassely, rear, and twin boys Benjamin and Christian. AP
    Comment Shares Tweets Stumble Email More +
    A Los Angeles hospital has confirmed that two of its former employees died in family murder-suicide in the city’s Wilmington area.

    Kaiser Permanente Medical Center West Los Angeles says in a statement that Ervin Antonio Lupoe and his wife, Ana, were former employees and the hospital is cooperating in the police investigation.

    Police say Lupoe shot his wife, 8-year-old daughter, twin 5-year-old daughters and twin 2-year-old boys shortly before 8:30 a.m. Tuesday in their home.

    The hospital says in its statement, “We are deeply saddened to hear of the deaths of the Lupoe family.”

    Lupoe, apparently distraught over job problems fatally shot his wife, five young children and himself at their harbor-area home Tuesday.

    Shortly before the killings, Lupoe faxed a letter to a TV station claiming that he and his wife had been fired from jobs as medical technicians and she suggested they kill themselves and their children, too.

    “Why leave the children to a stranger?” Lupoe wrote, according to KABC-TV.

    KABC reported that Lupoe claimed in the fax that an administrator rebuffed them when they showed up to work, told them to file a union grievance and said, “You should have blown your brains out.”

    Lupoe wrote that they filed a grievance but nothing was done and two days later they were fired, KABC said.

    “They did nothing to the manager who started such and did not attempt to assist us in the matter, knowing we have no job and five children under 8 years old with no place to go. So here we are,” the note said.

    At the bottom of the note, the man wrote, “Oh lord, my God, is there no hope for a widow’s son?”

    It was the third mass slaying of a family in Southern California since fall.

    “Today our worst fear was realized,” said Deputy Chief Kenneth Garner. “It’s just not a solution. There’s just so many ways you find alternatives to doing something so horrific and drastic as this.”

    Police described the fax but did not release the detail reported by the KABC.

    “He was going through some critical situation at the job, that’s what he described in that two-page letter, ongoing problems at the job, and that’s what prompted him to take his own life and his family, from what was said in the fax letter,” Garner said.

    The TV station called police after receiving the fax, and a police communications center also received a call from a man who stated, “‘I just returned home and my whole family’s been shot,”‘ Garner said.

    “There is a disconnect but we believe our suspect is the one who called,” Garner said.

    Officers rushed to the two-story home in Wilmington, near the Port of Los Angeles, shortly before 8:30 a.m., apparently within minutes of the killings. Garner said the officers could still smell the gunshot residue.

    Although the fax asserted that the woman was involved, police Lt. John Romero said, “It is apparent that the suspect in the murder is the male adult.”

    The two-story home, much larger than its one-story neighbors, sits in front of a railroad track in Wilmington, a community about 18 miles south of downtown. A children’s playset stood in the backyard.

    On Dec. 24, a man dressed up as Santa Claus invaded a Christmas Eve party at his ex-wife’s parents’ home in suburban Covina. His ex-wire and eight of her relatives died from gunshots or in the house fire he set. The man later killed himself.

    In October, an unemployed financial manager despairing over extreme money problems shot and killed his wife, three children, mother-in-law and himself in their home in the Porter Ranch area of the San Fernando Valley.

  17. We live in a world of hazing and also the covering of bad behavior. I’ve seen it in my military years, reward the bad and the good is left behind. But, one day we will rise against the evil and the cold blooded. Why would someone say something that horrible to people general. Would you say that to your family or anyone else. This world is full hatred and no hope. We need to find GOD again to see what people have done wrong. It rembers the day I got fucked up in Afghanistan and my gunny looking at me saying you aint getting no purple heart. Does these people have no heart or no soul.

  18. I can see that this subject today is divided amongst us.
    Some on here say they have had great experiences at VA’s. Some say they have had bad experiences at VA’s. While others are mixed on their experiences. I have to agree with all of you. Now before y’all start pouncing on me, let me explain.
    VA’s, in the past year, have come under fire due to egregious acts committed by many employees, physicians, nurses and administrative personnel. As well they should. Only it’s because they got caught trying to hide these acts. That makes it worse. Remember what your parents said about this very same issue? I know my parents would be extremely ashamed of me if I tried to hide something bad I did!

    Now, on to today’s subject. Here we have a mental health “professional” putting something on Facebook. Which was COMPLETELY out of line.
    Now again, before you who are defending him start to pounce. Let me explain. He should have known better! I know, some of you will say, he became “passionate” over his belief of gun control and lost his cool. Then he got caught. Then he apologized.
    On the other hand, this begs another more pertinent question. How long did it take for his act against that person to come out? Was it a few days? Was it a week or two? Was it longer? How did he get caught? Did upper management try to conceal his foul up?
    You see those questions, and more, need to be answered. Because, do we have another person in upper management trying to hide the “professions” act? Are there more VA employees who need to be disciplined besides the physician?
    I’m going to leave it up to y’all.

  19. No one will see the importance of what I say here, but I have two things to say.
    First, though Ben did not mean to, his use of at least two photos here of men with guns to their heads, are triggers for some who are actively suicidal. It is like a smoker who want to quit, but then they see someone smoking and it prompts them to light up.
    Second, the VA secretly loves the fact that their psychiatrist told someone to commit suicide. But, far worse, the VA and military jointly have secret suicide indoctrination programs that they use to kill military personnel and veterans. They do similar thing with murder programs.
    And, don’t believe for one minute that this incident was a one time thing or careless slip of the tongue. Some serious digging and investigating into Dr. Gorton and his colleagues would be the perfect place to start. This is the kind of thing that could bring the corruption of the VA to full light. Lastly, if anyone thinks the top VA leadership isn’t deeply in love with the daily suicide hit list of veterans then they can keep dreaming.

  20. Here’s something that was just tweeted by a gun activist. The subject was over “gun control”! So someone tweeted, “my weapon never woke up and went out and killed someone!”
    None of mine did either.

  21. Got a question, I wonder how one would feel. Knowing a relative, loved one or a “brother or sister” one knew personally in the military, committed suicide because of a comment being said on a “social media outlet”? Such as was said by this psychiatrist?

    Go “OFF” yourself

    I know I would be outraged.

    Come on, be completely honest. How would you feel????????

    • crazyelf,
      FB is like the Holy grail in communicating now days and so many people take what is written on it so literally. Look at the amount of stories of how someone shamed another person so bad that the shamed person did commit suicide. Everyone uses FB and even employers looking to hire someone will check out their FB page. FB is almost like the modern version of the Bible (in a way), it is used as a reference, on how to live your life, to communicate, to help, to console, to keep one from doing bad, to show one doing bad, ETC…
      I know I would feel terrible.
      f8f

    • Well am I shocked that a VA phyc. Could have no common sence. Nope we had experiences at our local VA. They are doing paperwork not related to the client. Laughing, ignoring ect. This person should be fired, not transferred, but fired….

  22. Mr Krause:
    We are health care professionals, not saints. Although I agree that when you talk to a suicidal patient you must be careful what you say

    • You are there in a health care professional and patient relationship. The comment lacked respect and sensitivity towards the mental health status of the patient. A friend may say that to you and you may be upset for a little while but when your doctor says it,.it might sound like a suggestion. He should be fired and his medical license suspended @ the very least. Legal action for both the VA and him personally would also be appropriate. A highly educated health care professional in the mental health field should not encourage suicide because he does not agrees with his patient.

      Care to ponder if has made such remarks before and also how many of his patients have committed suicide.

  23. to, SPrice.
    There’s a story on Fox 35 news (local Central Florida) @ 7:33 this morning you may want to look up and read.
    title;
    “Online Shaming: When does it cross the line & how to recover when your the target.”

    1.) You are definitely correct when stating,”you must be careful what you say.”
    As I, and others, have said of this ‘situation’, the psychiatrist did not choose his words appropriately. His, and others in VA, were apologetic. Problem is, once those words were said, It’s extremely difficult to apologize for. He is a professional. He should have known better.
    2.) “Online Shaming” is a national embarrassment to say the least. Many, of all ages, have taken their lives due to it. You would have known this fact, if you were keeping up with local and national news.
    3.) This part is hard to convey to you. Because, the article on Fox 35 this morning dealt with the person who killed that lion. The story showed what was going on outside his business. Many, many people were picketing his business.
    Isn’t it sad, to say the least, people are more concerned over the killing (it was reprehensible what he did. So don’t try to say I don’t care), of a wild beautiful animal. But they don’t give a rats ass over the way veterans are being treated on a daily basis.
    Right now, less than 1% of the American population is serving in the military. Those individuals, past and present, protected your freedoms you enjoy today. I don’t know if you ever served. But if you had, you might then understand the anger by veterans toward a “professional physician”(s)(who by the way is being compensated VERY handsomely by VA) callous words.
    I believe he should be receiving some form of penalty. I would leave that up to others who should do what is right. I do not believe this would warrant just a slap on the wrist. And a don’t do it again. Something more needs to be done….

    • When I asked doctor what the next step would be in husbands care if steroid shot did not work he told my husband since he was Italian, my husband, he would recommend he shoot himself. I think he thought he was funny but the steroid shot did not work since my husband did not have arthritis and was full of cancer the doctor obviously was serious in my husband either shooting himself or the doctor shooting him Neither remark was funny to me or my husband and he died 2 weeks later at a non VA hospital full of cancer. I believe the doctor said this to the patient after the experience my husband and I had with the VA. He had told them for 4 years plus he was in agony and they kept checking his urine to see what drugs his on, he must be a drug seeker. Poor man was in so much pain and the VA gave him Motrin as his cancer pain increased and told him he was looking for drugs. If they had worked as hard finding out what was wrong with my husband, rather than see what meds he was on, and he was only on what was prescribed, he might be alive today. Too busy doing urine test than to find out the cause of his pain. 2 weeks to live and they told him if the steroid shot did not work they would shoot him. I believe they had an agenda. I am very depressed and just spend 10 days in the hospital do to my husbands death. I miss him so much and if the VA did their job my husband would be here today. Don’t listen to the VA, go to another hospital. If my husband had sooner he would be alive today. he believed the VA..til the last 2 weeks when he was told his so called arthritis was full blown cancer and he had 2 weeks to live I think he died of shock to his body and the steroid shot spread the cancer so fast, nothing could be done exepet comfort measures. I love and miss my husband and always will. The VA took him from me. hope this never happens to another veteran or wife/family again…

      • Dear Sadie:
        I am very sorry for your loss.

        I used to work for a rheumatologist and one day after he examined a new patient, she asked him, “Well doctor, what do you think? How am I?” and he jokingly answered, “Well Trudy, let me put it this way, if you were a horse, I’d shoot you”.

        He didn’t really mean it, he was actually a very nice man. Joking usually put the patients at ease. So when I told him that Trudy had called and she was very hurt and offended because of what he’d said, he immediately called her and apologized, begged her to come back so he could do the exam all over again and didn’t charge her.

        Do you think perhaps the comment the VA doctor made was sort of similar to, “If you were a horse I’d shoot you”? because your husband was Italian…an Italian stallion (which is a horse). I mean, that would sort of explain it.

        Notice how both doctors were rheumatologists. Maybe it’s a joke they hear when they’re in rheumatology school. I’m not saying it was right to say that. But perhaps he didn’t mean he wanted your husband dead. It obviously is still upsetting you so why don’t you write to him and tell him how you feel? Even if he doesn’t answer you, I bet you’d feel better..

        I hope that all the good memories you have of your husband will give you comfort.

  24. Mr Krause:

    Although I agree that when talking to a patient who is suicidal you must be careful what you say, I don’t see how that pertains to having a heated discussion in a Facebook forum with someone who has not given any indication that he’s suicidal.

    We’re health care professionals, not saints. My Facebook page is public and I don’t delete posts but if someone posts something nasty I have the right to answer any way I want. As a matter of fact, just the other day I told a man trying to sell fake sovaldi where to go. I guess that makes me a bad nurse.

    However, I also refused to ban someone who started telling other forum members off because I thought something was wrong with him and I was right. He died a few days later.

    I believe that makes me a good nurse.

    Either way, I’ll still let you borrow my gun…my jetgun, that is.

    • Not saints is an understatement. This guy is a trained professional. Facebook or not…HOW does he justify telling anybody to kill themselves? Have you ever done that? There is a difference between telling some one to stop and telling anyone to kill themselves. ..don’t you think? I’m a vet suffering from depression, I have had some terrible doctors from the va and some good ones but luckily none have told me to kill myself yet…although a relative of mine did…people have no clue.

      • He should have been fired. In his capacity of a trained professional a comment like that can be fatal.Veterans go to the VA for a lot of reasons, one being unable to afford private insurance. There would be no VA hospital if there were no Veterans.
        That psychiatrist’ purpose is to help veterans and his comment led me to believe that he has made them before. He is not there as a friend he is there to provide treatment.

  25. Go to;
    “Help Us Hold VA Accountable-UTUBE”

    On another occasion, a VA physician has told a veterans to kill himself…

    There’s a number of ‘sites’ to visit. From 2014 to just the past few days. I explored over 10 pages of many wanting the VA’s nationwide to be held accountable.

    This is a great site to visit.

    • Ask me why this does NOT surprise me! My VA psychiatrist got me arrested, handcuffed and taken to facility for the criminally insane. He did it with a ptsd “treatment” designed to do exactly that!

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