New VA Forms ‘Obliterated’ Non-Adversarial Process
Many veterans organizations claim the new VA forms required to file disability compensation claims “obliterated” the non-adversarial process VA is required to adhere to.
Ron Abrams, head of NVLSP, stated:
“This is the essence of the non-adversarial process VA is supposed to have,” he said. “VA is supposed to be a friend of the veteran. If they find something else in the file that helps vets, they point it out and take care of it. Now, they’ve obliterated that.
“This is now a system of VA against the veterans, and the veterans will be hurt.”
The mood in DC about Veterans Affairs tackling the backlog has taken a dark turn with a recent move by VA to mandate that veterans use specific forms when filling out claims for disability compensation. The new forms would eradicate VA’s duty to review files for informal claims. In many instances, these informal claims are made by veterans without medical or legal training who rely on VA to fairly examine them and adjudicate the claim fairly to include conditions they have but were unaware of at the time.
There is little doubt that the new forms will disproportionately harm veterans with lower educations or limited access to electronic resources like the internet to help research their claims before hand.
According to Military Times:
Ron Abrams, executive director of the National Veterans Legal Services Program, noted that many veterans filing informal claims are individuals unfamiliar with VA resources, and the policy change shifts extra burden on them to learn the system before starting their claims process.
“VA’s track record on things like this are terrible,” he said. “When they say they’ll make sure all veterans have access, it may take four months for them to send out the forms to some folks. Nothing ever happens as neat or clean as VA says.”
Abrams also questioned VA’s assertion that the informal claims process is a burden on department workers, saying veterans’ benefits shouldn’t be threatened to simplify bureaucrats paperwork. American Legion National Commander Michael Helm called the move a “a cold-hearted decision that betrays VA’s mission.”
But Murphy said the changes mean “the ambiguity in the process is gone,” which will mean quicker and more accurate processing of all claims.
Problems with the new forms is that they require a veteran to identify an “intent to file” regarding particular disabilities. But if a veteran files for PTSD but forgets to include his amputated legs on the form because he also has a TBI and memory loss, that veterans additional claims will not be adjudicated. Currently, veteran friendly examiner would pick up on the fact that the veteran had no legs when he or she came in for an exam, and the legs would then be added to the claim.
The two loudest voices amongst the veteran orgs are American Legion and AVETS. They filed a lawsuit to reverse the changes.
Meanwhile, Compensation head Thomas Murphy claims the changes are not that big of a deal and that complaints are actually over-exaggerated. He went on to tell reporters, “There are some veterans’ organizations that support it, and other that said we see the need, we prefer you didn’t, but we understand why.”
My guess would be this org Murphy is referencing is Disabled American Veterans, which has been long accused of having an all too cozy relationship with VA at the expense of its members. I of course say this as a lifetime member of the organization.
The article states NVLSP head Ron Abrams claims the change goes against the fundamental mission of the Department of Veterans Affairs:
Abrams said that change goes against a fundamental mission of the department, to ensure that veterans are getting all the benefits they deserve, even ones they don’t know about.
What VA is really trying to do here is claim that informal claims for benefits are too difficult for VA to administer so they instead will place the burden on the veteran to become educated in law and medicine enough to predict the impact of their war wounds when filing a claim.
Seem like a fair move?
In reality, the move is simply a money game. VA wants to limit its liability moving forward and wants to change the way the game has been played for 60 years to get it done.
This position will not help veterans. It will instead cheat them out of earned disability benefits and reduce the cost of war to DOD so they can buy more unnecessary tanks.
What do you think about the restrictive forms? Should we be concerned with VA needing to work hard and reduce the amount of work for those union employees?
Well, since I have gotten my own active duty records it validated every word stated. Here is a “game,” in my cases, plural and call them plankton, yes, SAILOR I AM! Medical records are the possession of a Doctor, hence forth unless you got copies of them, they can and are destroyed after 7 years. Now, since WACO IS FILLED WITH STUPID AND CANNOT COMPREHEND PLEASE NO CALLS AFTER 3p CST BECAUSE EVEN WITH SLEEP MEDICATION, I CAN HAVE AN ALL NIGHTERS WITH PAIN. HICKEY? USELESS AS THE GAS ESCAPING FROM HER RECTUM! SHE DID THE WORST POSSIBLE THING-A NIGHTMARE THAT CAME TO LIFE WHEN I WAS A YOUNG INDEPENDENT ENJOYED WALKS AND NATURE, NEVER REALLY KNEW THE THING CALLED FEAR. OH BUT NOW I SO DO! MY BACK, NOT EMPLOYABLE BUT WHERE DID THE ANTI-ANXIETY MED BECOME RELIEVES BACK NO DEAR HELPS WITH PANIC ATTACKS. YET, DUCKS NOT DOCS OCCUPY SPACE, TREATMENT YOU SAY? HA! CAUGHT ONCE AGAIN WITH THEIR GAME. BE WISE AND BE TEN STEPS AHEAD, METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING ( no don’t own one) MY GUN IS LOCKED LOADED AND THIS WILL GO AS FAR AS I CAN TAKE IT! NEVER STEP ON MY FAMILIES GRAVE NOR SAY HORRIBLE RELATIONSHIP, GEE, THEN WHY IN THE HELL DO I HAVE PHOTOS THAT SAY DIFFERENT? VA-BE AWARE, YES I SURE DID SAY SOMETHING THAT WAS TERRIBLELY WRONG WHEN I NEVER PUSHED A BUTTON AND IT SPEAKS OF A DEATH GRAVES ETC? THEN THE NEW “THEME SONG IS WHEN THE SAINTS COME MARCHING IN?” WHY NOT ITS A SMALL WORLD AFTER ALL? AND BEING RAISED CATHOLIC I WISH TO KNOW WHAT, WHEN, WHY, WHERE AND WHO THE SAINTS THAT MARCH IN? SURELY YOU JEST, BECAUSE I HAVE YET TO MEET ONE DAMN SAINT BUT A BUNCH OF SINNERS! BUT HEY, THEY MAY BELIEVE SIN DURING THE WEEK AND A SAINT ON SUNDAY! YUP, I STATED AND NOW READY, LOCKED LOADED AND “THEY BETTER BE READY!”
Metaphors and yes I shall speak or write it as well as cryptically because i see too much idiot status tattooed on foreheads-yes I can read backwards, upside down and left to right it doesn’t matter, just call a talent I had since I first read a book!
There is something inherently wrong in this U.S.A. government when, private employees who get hurt on the job, get no medical care or worker compensation money or disability benefits, those who were hurt seriously & permanently disabled!. There are at least several million of American workers who are seriously hurt on the job who get the corporation shaft, after the shaft of getting hurt on the job Then their WC attorneys will send them to SSA & they get,to get social security on non FICA benefits(the amount one pays into when working), cheating the injured worker again & then our soldiers face the same problems?
Often we have attorneys who handle both WC & SSA. They get to charge for both.
This cheating workers & soldiers out of their owed benefits ARE scam brought on by attorneys, & our U.S. legislators are full of them. Just look where the claims money goes & you’ll know why we don’t get our benefits.
I worked for 30 years & received the same amount of SSA benefits as did my own parent.
I applaud the fact the there are those who are suing the VA,.Those who help create the circumstances to deny any soldier what they’re owed should actually be in jail. Now that would be some accountability.
I just wish injured workers had the same representation but I see a glimmer of hope.
I salute all of you,
@Dina
Then Veterans or those applying for Soc. Sec. SSDI that decide to use attorney’s, and more specifically to SSDI with my first-hand knowledge, end up getting the shaft yet again when there’s actually motivation to delay inherent in the process…they (most do) 25% of all awarded back-pay, even if they do absolutely nothing. The longer it takes, the more they make…sounds like a damn infomercial, does it not?
I am not coming down on attorney’s, it’s just that the way all the navigable red tape is in reality, a huge insurance indemnity delay game. We Vets just happen to be the liability to their plan’s scheme.
I do not think the VA Secretaries really have enough of an “immersed clue” of how corrupt VA Culture is…look…you can make the word ‘Vulture’ joining ‘VA Culture’.
THAT is where change needs to trickle down like a village being flooded that lives downstream of a massive damn…a complete VA Colonoscopy…and an Enema at same time, all management down to the custodian, gets a changeover, not just another face, as I see that as sort of a makeover…or as late, do over.
namnibor; Federal law states that Soc. Sec. attorneys are awarded the sum of 25% of back pay, NOT TO EXCEED $4,000. So no matter how long they work a case, they get no more than $4,000. I have a buddy that fought for 14 years to get his SSDI, lawyer got $4,000 + small expenses. Myself, I got approved in less than 2 months, had to give first year of disability, but still got pretty good back pay and my attorney got $4,000. Just wanted to clarify. God Speed to all Vets. But NEVER, I Say NEVER Give Up The Fight For Your Earned Benefits. You were trained to fight the enemy and WIN! And the V.A. Bureaucracy IS THE ENEMY!!
FUBAR as usual,,3 steps forward,,4 steps back.
Maybe that is why I had a most adversarial hearing for my husband yesterday. I came home and sent an email to Allison Hickey asking her to resign and let someone effective help her fellow veterans.
And, they know about the new forms: even though ours is old they claim that any sort of constructive claim is no good anymore…it HAS to be on the correct form and correctly stated as of March.
How many veterans know the VA’s intricate system of insane rules and virtual landmines?
>>How many veterans know the VA’s intricate system of insane rules and virtual landmines?
indeed. very few do, that is, know all that you mention. most veterans have learned this the hard way. even so called VSO’s get tripped up by those insane rules. sl vets can’t be sure VSO’ file their claims correctly.
to fight, and it is a fight make no mistake about it, to obtain one’s rightful disability rating when evidence proves it, it becomes a full time job for the veteran. remember, the veteran has medical proof, history proof, but the VA will and does then work to smudge that evidence and trip the veteran up. so much for TItle: 38 rules VA is supposed to follow. indeed it is a fight and a long one.
many veterans have lost jobs, family and savings just by this all consuming effort to file a claim “correctly the VA way”. that includes study time, typo mistakes & redo’s, examinations where veterans’ words are rebranded to trip the veteran up, IMOs(to counter the weird stuff VA doctors write), paperwork VA claims didn’t arrive but veteran has delivery receipt, meetings with VSO’s or lawyers, etc. that’s a full time job with much overtime!
now add to that the veteran is disabled in varying degrees, nevertheless, he/she is ill/injured and can back it up. but what does the VA do then? [hey, let us trip up this veteran, with say, one word taken out of context during an exam, one “i” not dotted, one “t” not crossed correctly, write deflecting statements in med records, etc.] you veterans know the picture.
after a few years the veteran has no choice but to get an attorney because it becomes too much, and then add what @Robin stated, “… know the VA’s intricate system of insane rules and virtual landmines?”.
as i wrote, it just becomes too much.
the VA says this new claims approach is to help the veteran? historically, what’s the percentage of veterans that will back that up and say something like, “yes, sure, the VA claims process is so streamlined and simple now. got my legal rightful disability award in less than 120 days, got correct diagnosis and being medically treated so well in short amount of time. why, me and my caregiver are just ecstatic over how simple and efficient the process is. why the RO always answered the phone to let me know they found more things wrong with me that should be added to the claim that we missed in medical records giving benefit of doubt to veteran, and they would add it to increase my rightful percentage. my my.” any of you veterans have that happen?
and yes the lawyers do get an auto percentage helping the veteran with VA claim and SSD. at this point, the veteran thinks this is not a bad deal, because on his/her own there is no way to be able to do all the work correctly with the paperwork. doesn’t seem right, but a good lawyer can really help. but if you view Title 38, and if VA actually followed their own rules, the veteran in many cases wouldn’t need an attorney.
what a backwards system though, the veteran did all the real work in that the veteran got ill/injured in the mil job (combat or non-combat), has endured years of crazy VA stuff from doctors and RO claims office, and now the veteran, if to pursue it, needs an attorney for a percentage. all because of the “@Robin: VA’s intricate system of insane rules and virtual landmines?”
i’ve had a few bad attorneys in this gladiator sport, the VA claims process. have a good one now but had to fire a few via trial-n-error. the veteran knew more and worked harder than the attorney’s i fired. that process alone, just to get to that point, can take a few years to reach. in the meantime, no judgement on claim!!! go back to the starting gate.
you’ll have a hard time convincing me or many other veterans this new “VA -forms” project is to actually benefit veterans. for many, if VA & RO simply followed their rules for them from Title: 38, many veterans would get their rightful claims awarded in a short period of time. versus putting veterans through miserable psych mind-fields after filing a claim.
if i’m wrong, then test this out, have members of Congress fill out these forms, with no help, that is do it themselves like many veterans do first time, and let them go through the years worth process. i suspect the claims process might be fixed after that or not?
or Congress might just need to hire their own military, contract milper can then get under a medical insurance plan that covers illness, injury, disability issues, legal fees, etc. contract milper can then have right to sue like in civilian corporations. choose any med facility or not and federal insurance pays for it, just like federal employee medical insurance, like Congress has.
i say that sort of as a joke, but i wonder how many would volunteer again to wear the uniform knowing the battle you were to face with disability claims and VA med care when you were discharged? i’m a dinosaur American apple-pie-kinda guy, and still get fuzzy feelings when seeing American troops helping those that can’t defend themselves and spreading a bit of hope. but the VA experience, sure leaves me questioning some days.
how the hell will anyone get anything as long as they hire Paki shrinks who really know nothing and hate the Jews??????
I have fought for years with the VA. There are 2 things I have not claimed yet because I have an appeal for IU. I did not want to delay it anymore. Can I still add these? I am seeing a VSO officer this week. As long as this has taken, I will be dead before I get it. I tried to commit suicide this last year, but did not succeed. This is what happens when you have to apply for VA benefits. They drive you nuts.
The bad thing (among many) is McDonald is used to the adversarial role at P&G, and will have bankrolled a billion dollars in kickbacks (like Cheney and Bush did) before his term is up: from illegal sponsorship of his present/past/illegally supported organizations.
This McDonald thing is starting to snowball, and now he has so many distractions (like Bush and Cheney), he will not meet any resistance for quite a while in his looting of US Funds via the VA.
>>Currently, veteran friendly examiner would pick up on the fact that the veteran had no legs when he or she came in for an exam, and the legs would then be added to the claim.
my goodness, any veteran anywhere who has filed a claim actually had a “veteran friendly” examiner actually adhere to the U.S Code: Title 38 whereby they picked up on medical evidence in mil/med records the veteran missed and the VA then added it? evidence that might facilitate a CUE, negligence, added retro pay, VA doctor’s medical errors, increase legal valid disability, etc.?
you gotta be kidding me. sure, some veterans to get a “veteran friendly” claims person trying to help the veteran obtain ALL claims awards via the evidence, but i submit, that is by far the minimal outliers and not the norm most veterans have experienced.
surely not most veterans. many veterans certainly wouldn’t need a lawyer to file their claims these days and help them adjudicate(sic) their claims, if anything, just to keep the VA claims people to be on the up-n-up.
veterans, please raise your hand if you have had “veteran friendly” claims people adhering to Title 38 of their responsibility to you. i’d like to see that comparative count.
he is right..my experience has been that while article 38 requires that the VA extend the benefit of the doubt in favor of the VET , the actuality is the opposite. the VA ALWAYS decides against the VET… it has to be a policy of the VA to ignore Article 38 and decide against the VET…. what will Bob McDonald do about this? Nothing? Business as usual? How about instructing these ignorant SROs in the LAW such that their small and inadequate brains can follow the rules? or in the words of one SRO “that ain’t gonna happen”. Well Bob, is he right????
I want to address the comment regarding Donald Trump before I get to the issue that Ben raises. Donald Trump is a gutless, spineless coward who, like virtually all Republican extremists–Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, Dick Cheney, George Bush, ad nauseum–avoided military service during the Vietnam War. For that fat, greasy weasel to be saying anything about veterans, or our men and women on active duty, makes me sick. And why does he wear a dead ferret on his head? In the current crop of Republicans running for President, not one of them served and this is particularly galling when someone like Ted Cruz rants about the Constitution he was too cowardly to swear to defend with his life.
As for Ben’s article, anyone who believes that the VA has ever been a non-adversarial system is living in a dream world. My response to those who say it is, is that if it was non-adversarial, you would not need a service officer. Every claim would be correctly and fairly decided out of the gate and there would be very few appeals. The process and the forms, along with their instructions, would be easy to understand so that virtually any veteran would be able to handle his or her own claim. This new proposal, to outlaw claims people from raising claims they see when they review a veteran’s medical records, is just the latest example of VA duplicity when claiming to be the veteran’s friend. As for DAV not being behind the move to fight these changes, what else would you expect from an organization that paid its top three people $1,079,859 in 2011, while most of their rank-and-file members live on their VA disability pay and Social Security.
Because the VA feels pressed to reduce the claims backlog, decisions are rushed, often wrong, and veterans are denied the compensation they have earned. Moreover, while they claim the backlog has been reduced from more than 600,000 claims, to around 200,000, I have serious doubts that this is truthful, based on my own caseload. Furthermore, these claims do not address the criminal backlogs of Notice of Disagreement cases (taking as long as two years), getting claims packages to the Board of Veterans Appeals (these can take up to a year), and the backlogs at the BVA and the Court of Appeals–3-5 years. I know from my friends who do claims work at various VA Regional Offices, that they are being hard pressed to get decisions done–they have quotas they have to meet–and are forced to work a minimum of 20 hours of overtime each month. One of my best friends was recently written up because his production did not meet the phony numbers he is supposed to meet. He told me that he refuses to rush the decisions because he would rather be right than rushed simply to meet some imaginary number.
“This is now a system of VA against the veterans, and the veterans will be hurt.”
Yea, so what else is new? Claims are now just coming inline with the healthcare – or what goes for healthcare by VA standards.
This is why a veteran should hire an attorney that specializes in VA comp claims, if you are going to attempt this by yourself, well, you best find a job.
I did it completely by myself while also at same time going through three denials and finally approval of my Soc. Sec. Disability Income…through research on sites like hadit.com and others, all online, as well as all the Regs. the VA is supposed to follow…it can be done, I am proof, so is Ben. I did not need an attorney until the very end and that person just happens to be one of my State Senators, and still is. 100% SC P&T…wish I did not have plethora of health issues but it is what it is, moving forward now.
So with that said, I do not think ANY Veteran requires an attorney and if it does require one, make damn well sure it’s a friend or someone you trust wholeheartedly. Why? Unfortunately, there’s a minion of attorneys that claim to help people file Social Security Disability Claims and many are simply ineffective pariah, like lap dogs only in it for their 25% of one’s back pay. I have read this happening with Veterans as well. Not saying attorney’s are bad by no means, it’s just that we as Veterans and the Disabled, are VERY easy targets, or also called “cash cows”…you indeed make it a FULL TIME JOB filing with the VA and Soc Sec…that’s how you win…along with documentation, copies of everything, and of course, truly living with craptastic daily health and mental issues.
However, I have now received -3- separate/duplicate emails from the VA about this “new Intent To File” online form process and it seems to me this is a bad move. Now, before this, you were able to file your initial claim online then send-in via registered/certified mail (to have a record of their recpt. because the VA magically loses things…learned on hadit.com as well), sending in all your hard copies of medical evidence, and most importantly, providing undisputed and proof of ‘Service Condition’…but it seems this new so-called ‘streamlined system’ will be something that someone in an outsourced VA Claim Center in FRANCE or subcontracted by France to someone in India…looking over your claim…BAD NEWS!
I know noting was mentioned relating to yesterday’s post by Ben about Xerox/France/VA situation, but you cannot tell me the lazy union VA will not now just have these electronic ‘intent to file’ processed via outsourcing, while the VA remains bloated with entitled worthless work ethos employees and that includes most of the medical professionals.
We are still actively in a huge WAR. The war profiteers are not wanting this to change…but they at same time want to “cut their costs” on the real tangible “costs of war”, those that fight/fought the good fight.
Then to return to a fight with the VA whom acts as if they are exempt from any accountability!?
I guess the Koch Brothers and Halliburton completely own the VA as well.
I too handled all my claims (6 separate ratings) totaling 100% P & T. That experience included one NOD.
Why didn’t I have at least a VSO? Actually, I did. I had 3. American Legion (which never filed notice of my power of attorney to the VA), the State VSO (who I overheard him discuss my medical issues with another veteran) and the DAV. The DAV was a special case, the secretary at the office signed me up and I asked for an in person appointment. She told me she will get back to me. After 6 weeks, I called and was told that the rep was promoted 2 months ago and they are waiting for a new one (mind you, she signed me up knowing there was no rep). Yes, I fired them all.
Read everything I could about my claims, asked questions on a number of sites and got great information which if I hadn’t used, I would never saw the success I did.
That doesn’t mean everyone should handle their own case. I have a business degree and 35 years in the business world. I know how to do research and I know how to stay dispassionate and just state facts. If you are not ready for that kind of commitment and don’t have some basic skills in research, you may actually harm your cause.
Hiring a VSO should be the same as hiring an attorney. You interview them since you are the client and who they supposedly work for. If you don’t like what you experience in the interview or don’t like the individual – move on, there are many who could rep you.
The main thing is to get a claim filed so you can get an effective date. Representing yourself, or having a VSO or lawyer represent you can all be worked on after the initial filing of the claim.
As usual, I always smell something rotten whenever they (VA) goes to changing up things. The new Secretary was supposed to be the veterans advocate. But is he really that? And why did the O’Bama administration shoo him into office so quickly? I wonder, And I wonder what all is he up to. Is he being truthful about the changes he said he’s going to make? He did say he was an ex-Green Beret, didn’t he? Turns out he wasn’t.
Donald Trump has proven that America does not have any financial worries, which are claimed to be the ultimate source of why the VA shafts vets. Trump has repeatedly gone down the list of nations that not only owe America a total of trillions of dollars, but easily have the assets to pay us. One such example is our role as World Policemen as we fight their wars from them, like we did for Iraq, twice in fact. You can easily prove this to yourself and everyone you know. Easily go to footage online of Trump, backed by the best accountant in the world, as he goes down a long list of hidden assets that America has even internally. When they add it all up it comes out to be a huge surplus of financial assets, totally in the black, not in the red at all, that we have. This will come out again, soon, as he is moving strongly toward announcing his intent to run for President.
This is an outrage, but it really changes very little about the VA’s thinking on the claims process. If there’s any vet anywhere who didn’t feel that his or claim was adjudicated in a non-adversarial manner, I’ve yet to meet him or her.
I was ready to start beginning to believe in the VA application process again and contact a VSO. I guess I dodged a bullet.
In other words the veteran is going to have to become his own VSO and the veterans VSO is going to have to become the VSO veteran’s VSO doctor and provide the necessary medical information on the new form. Obviously this will lead to mistakes leading to a denial which can’t be appealed under this “new form” rule the VA came up with. This will lead to more easier denial of claims, thereby decreasing the claims backlog, which will then also increase the bonuses for adjudicators. All this will happen at the demise of disabled veterans. This is just a part of McDonald’s “Disneyland VA”!
I’m so fucking sick and tired of the VA that I am real close to just cutting up my VA card, throw all that shit away and just go with private health ONLY!!!!!!!!! My chances of living a better life is without the VA!!!! Only when I am dead will the VA approve!!!
I already feel better!!
I walked into a church recently and had my VA card in my wallet. My wallet burst into huge flames and had to be extinguished by about 20-25 people there. I was told something very Evil must be in my wallet. I was scared!
Author needs to do a little more research before speculating:
“Disabled American Veterans National Service Director Jim Marszalek said there is no great support for the VA’s action.
‘I don’t know one VSO that’s in support of this change. I haven’t heard of one yet,’ he said. DAV is preparing to file its own lawsuit against the VA ‘very, very soon.
‘It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when,’ he said.”
From Bryant Jordan at Military.com:
https://m.military.com/daily-news/2015/03/27/veteran-groups-sue-va-for-ending-informal-disability-claims.html
Why is this always about saving money when it comes to paying out on claims but no big deal when it comes to the DOD getting & spending over 2/3rds of the national U.S. budget & more, year after year, all to justify in sending our troops to go to wars? This happens to private citizens regarding their need for medical care and or disability benefits.It is as if once you need care or benefits, you then become yet another target, a target for insurance companies to save money So, How can any legislator who is supposed to represent us all, sanction any of this? When money supercedes any of our soldiers life, minds & limbs,, that our soldiers are just discounted & disregarded, then our country is really lost and this is why we send them to war to fight for a country who can’t take care of their own? Our soldiers don’t need anymore betrayals. Our soldiers deserve a whole lot more than being a casualty, just for insurance companies, like the DOD’s AIG.
Shame on anyone who dares to deny, disrespect or disregard our soldiers who now need our country’s help, the country they HELPED, the one they fought for..
TO ALL U.S.A., legislators, you all need to remember THAT!